Rix Heavy Scout Discussion

[Xeretov]

QUOTE (Gandalf2 @ Jul 4 2010, 06:09 PM) Would reducing the ammo clip size another 10-20% work? Is that even possible?

Yes but it'd be excessive imo. Other hvy scouts have 800-1000 ammo while Rix has 250. Its a tradeoff - Rix has a third the ammo, but their turret is effectively on the front gun. Also remember that other scouts get 800 ammo for the gat & turret, plus QL missiles on top of that. Even two Rix hvy scouts don't add up to that much ammo so their endurance is quite limited compared to other factions'.

[Jimen]

QUOTE (Xeretov @ Jul 4 2010, 06:23 PM) Yes but it'd be excessive imo. Other hvy scouts have 800-1000 ammo while Rix has 250. Its a tradeoff - Rix has a third the ammo, but their turret is effectively on the front gun. Also remember that other scouts get 800 ammo for the gat & turret, plus QL missiles on top of that. Even two Rix hvy scouts don't add up to that much ammo so their endurance is quite limited compared to other factions'.

Sure, but Rix hvy scouts get a whole lot more use out of ammo reloads than other factions' hvy scouts get out of extra missile racks. Rix hvy scouts may not quite be able to singlehandedly dogfight hvy ints...but try doing it in any other hvy scout with just a rack or two of seekers? Some may argue that dumbfires are useful or that it means you carry less prox, but I'll get to that.

Personally, I think Rix hvy scouts should get combat pods instead. Why? Well, the core balance issue with Rix hvy scouts IMO is not one of firepower but of role. Although they pack enough firepower to defend themselves against lone ships, most heavy scouts are still ultimately util craft. Other than the turret, their only useful tools are the increased cargo capacity and the ability to quickly pump a massive rack of dumbfires into a miner - they don't have any real dogfight buffs (don't even mention QL seekers, they're laughable compared to the front mini-AC). Rix hvy scouts, on the other hand, are effective enough in a dogfight that people are seriously discussing "scout vs interceptor" as if it isn't the foregone conclusion it should be, in trade for having poor miner-killing abili...what? Okay, TEK tells me that a Rix hvy scout firing the front mini-AC 1 kills a miner faster than a Dreg hvy scout unloading QL Dumb1s. Huh, wasn't expecting that, but doesn't it just underscore the balance concerns?

Anyway, combat pods. I'm putting my support behind them because they're much more of a "miner-killing, not int-killing" weapon than a front mini-AC is, because they benefit from the increased cargo space in much the same way that missiles do. Hvy scouts are not dogfighters, and talking about the mini-AC as a replacement for missiles is ridiculous because it fills a completely different role.

[EdDaalleg]

QUOTE (Jimen @ Jul 4 2010, 07:56 PM) whaaargaaarbl

Whoa, did you just get home from a day at summer school?

[DasSmiter]

QUOTE (Jimen @ Jul 4 2010, 07:56 PM) Anyway, combat pods. I'm putting my support behind them because they're much more of a "miner-killing, not int-killing" weapon than a front mini-AC is, because they benefit from the increased cargo space in much the same way that missiles do. Hvy scouts are not dogfighters, and talking about the mini-AC as a replacement for missiles is ridiculous because it fills a completely different role.

QUOTE (DasSmiter @ Jul 2 2010, 05:36 PM) Combat drone makes a poor replacement for mini-ac

I checked it out and it's a fairly poor replacement

12 dmg/sec in DM04 versus 90 dmg/sec in DM11 means they both have the same multiplier versus miners (.5) which means hvy scouts are doing 45 dmg/sec with mini-ac 1 while combat drone 1 is doing 6 dmg/sec

By which I mean that mini-ac 1 is a better miner killer weapon

Because of the high dmg output on mini-ac 1 their other multipliers still leave them a superior weapon versus anything (even BS). Really the mini-ac doesn't fill a completely different role, it fills a wider role and does better in the specific area you named than the comparison tech you are proposing to replace it with.

The dispersion nerf should reduce the kiting crap you see now while leaving the rix hvy scout with a competitive dmg output when compared to QL Dumb wielding hvy scouts of other factions. I don't think the problem is necessarily that rix HS can stand toe to toe with other factions ints/figs, but that their speed and range allow them to deal damage untouchably.

[Jimen]

Here, I'll repeat myself just for you. Miner-killing, NOT int-killing. Just, you know, to make my emphasis a little more clear. I don't give a crap whether they can kill miners or not as long as they're better at killing the miners than they are at killing the miner d.

I'm not trying to balance Rix hvy scouts with figs or ints or themselves, I'm trying to bring them in line with other heavy scouts. There's only one heavy scout that can, without using the turret, semi-reliably kill a averagely-piloted (i.e., barely smart enough to dodge a dumbfire) heavy int without reloading anything. Any guesses which scout that is? The problem isn't the damage (3x that of a gat1) or the range (exceeding that of snipers), it's the reliability that puts mini-AC head and shoulders above the others. While QL dumbfires are great damage-dealers against things that can't dodge, they're poor at hitting moving targets; mini-AC is much, much easier to hit with, and can output a lot more damage before reloading.

And from that point of view (reliability), combat drones are a lot less reliable than the mini-AC...which is fine, since that's what I'm aiming for. If the damage has to be tweaked, so be it, Rix tac isn't a common techpath so I'm guessing combat drones are a bit underpowered anyway.

[RealPandemonium]

QUOTE (Edmond @ Jul 4 2010, 09:01 PM) Whoa, did you just get home from a day at summer school?

[Adept]

Jimen actually has a good point. My beef with the Rix heavy scout is precisely that it gets used as an offencive combat ship rather than a scout.

Combat pods will work if you can fit enough of them in those doubled up cargo slots. The full AC turret will IMO achieve the same. It depends on whether you want them to be mostly solo flown ships (pods) or whether you want to emphasize the turret firepower (full AC).

This could be a case where deliberately doing (half) a months testing with such changes would be more useful than any amount of theoretical waffling on the forum.

[oldGB]

Iirc the heavy scout was partly the fault of the "antimatter" dev guys (Romeo, me and a bunch of others) and pook, who adapted it to his pooky core.

Even back then we had lengthy duscussions (search function, anyone?) about hvy scouts. I cannot comment on the current state of the game, since
i haven't played it for quite a while. But they were fun Loads of fun back then.

One thing that hasn't changed in the years it seems:

spidey- shuddup

[spideycw]

QUOTE (oldGB @ Jul 5 2010, 04:43 AM) Iirc the heavy scout was partly the fault of the "antimatter" dev guys (Romeo, me and a bunch of others) and pook, who adapted it to his pooky core.

Even back then we had lengthy duscussions (search function, anyone?) about hvy scouts. I cannot comment on the current state of the game, since
i haven't played it for quite a while. But they were fun Loads of fun back then.

One thing that hasn't changed in the years it seems:

spidey- shuddup

No posting until Effix is finished old. Back to work!

[DasSmiter]

QUOTE (Jimen @ Jul 4 2010, 09:32 PM) Here, I'll repeat myself just for you.

The way to bring them into line with other hvy scouts miner killing wise is NOT to give them combat drone and take away the mini-ac