Ints - cut their fuel?
Well, running into rocks isn't such a big issue as it then requires that you be accompanied by a scout. Otherwise, running into a rock is part of the hazard of int flying. Should tech those to assume that can just hold booster down everywhere you go.Tkela wrote:QUOTE (Tkela @ Aug 1 2007, 09:08 PM) I wonder if it makes sense for ships to have two scan ranges? One for environmental objects (asteroids, alephs and, probably stations) and one for everything else (ships, mines, probes, etc.).
One problem with reducing the scan range for ints too much is that it doesn't feel quite right to run into an asteroid you didn't see.
It would also allow for two potentially interesting ships:an interceptor on steroids that had a ship scan range of zero (don't forget to take a scout along).
a survey ship that had a high environment scan range to allow for faster sector mapping (probably as a faction specific perk)
Initially when I wrote my last post, i was thinking about having ints with 0 scan. It makes things interesting but I dunno... if it's heavily armored (more than hvy int) it becomes a super defender. Would be very very hard to bomb against it. Offensively, it could be ubertech as it just requires a couple of scouts to become it's eyes. It won't be fun for the defenders, and fighting hvy ints is hard enough as it is.
I was also thinking about special ships too... would be interesting if you could have an Electronic Counter Warfare Ship. Like a bomber with no turrets, or may be just 1 turret for defense. Basically it would jam every ship in the sector reducing everybody's scan ranges by 25% or more. Would make for interesting game play for both offense and defense.
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DreamWalker
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:00 am
Int dmg output is not the problem. Lowering ammo/hull? How does that make sense for an intercept ship that is supposed to defend vs bomb runs and such?
The problem right now is that its right now do not only own the sky (space?) within occupied sectors, but they can carry outrageous firepower several sectors away. With the removal of the tard gun, which was a good thing, there is no other ship that in its dogfighting capabilities come close to that of a hvy int. You don't want ships that are so powerful and stealthy all over the map, thus the idea to cut amount of fuel carried/cut fuel efficiency is a viable one. I would vote for reducing the amount of fuel carried with keeping the fuel efficiency as it is right now as that would make salvaging fuel more important and might enrich the gameplay.
In any case, I am fine with ints how they are right now and anyways all is in Noir's hands.
The problem right now is that its right now do not only own the sky (space?) within occupied sectors, but they can carry outrageous firepower several sectors away. With the removal of the tard gun, which was a good thing, there is no other ship that in its dogfighting capabilities come close to that of a hvy int. You don't want ships that are so powerful and stealthy all over the map, thus the idea to cut amount of fuel carried/cut fuel efficiency is a viable one. I would vote for reducing the amount of fuel carried with keeping the fuel efficiency as it is right now as that would make salvaging fuel more important and might enrich the gameplay.
In any case, I am fine with ints how they are right now and anyways all is in Noir's hands.
I love TKELA's idea(I actually wish he got most of them when he was still working for alleg /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> ) I think it'd be a lot better to have 2 type of scan range. I don't think the ship scan range should be 0, but being lower could be fun.
That said, on the topic of making ints unable to be so powerfull everywhere, I really don't think that scan range reductions would help. PPs, scouts and probes would just solve the issue. The problem with ints is that 10 ints can move 2 sectors away, kill everything and come back as soon as they're done. Changing that to 8 ints 2 scouts would not solve anything.
Also, another problem I have with reduced scan range is that I have absolubtly no problems with ints camping alephs and being able to kill stuff that comes through. If ints defend a con and that the con dies, they usually make the con killers pay for that... but right now, they would be forced to run... that's just not how ints should be imo.
The fuel is the real problem and I'll tell you something, if you comm and that you see unsuported ints, just don't keep them mining or make them run to the ref/base, make them hide somewhere then, you're safe.
That said, on the topic of making ints unable to be so powerfull everywhere, I really don't think that scan range reductions would help. PPs, scouts and probes would just solve the issue. The problem with ints is that 10 ints can move 2 sectors away, kill everything and come back as soon as they're done. Changing that to 8 ints 2 scouts would not solve anything.
Also, another problem I have with reduced scan range is that I have absolubtly no problems with ints camping alephs and being able to kill stuff that comes through. If ints defend a con and that the con dies, they usually make the con killers pay for that... but right now, they would be forced to run... that's just not how ints should be imo.
The fuel is the real problem and I'll tell you something, if you comm and that you see unsuported ints, just don't keep them mining or make them run to the ref/base, make them hide somewhere then, you're safe.
Thinking about it, if we are willing to change core format, maybe it would make sense to allow all ships to specify a lifespan (ala pods). For most ships, it would be infinite but for ints (or a flavor of int), it could be something lime 10 minutes.
Who knows, it might even make carriers useful /wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />
You could even have a new cargo (carried by only the sector support ship) which would act as a life-support recharge.
Who knows, it might even make carriers useful /wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />
You could even have a new cargo (carried by only the sector support ship) which would act as a life-support recharge.
Last edited by Tkela on Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Elephanthead
- Posts: 211
- Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:00 am
The problem with a 10-minute countdown (or any countdown really long enough to see out a defense or watch miners) is that it would have to be plenty of time to do all the stuff that currently ints seem to do too well, anyway. Other than a big hit to the fuel tanks (down to fighter-level duration but with much better acceleration) not much is going to keep 'em from swarming across the map (or just taking a jaunt over to wipe out a miner). Just about everything to leave their capability intact but keep 'em defensive would require code-level changes (ints can't go through an aleph to an uncontrolled sector, or degrade in uncontrolled sectors, or a change similar to Tkela's suggestion to add to the cores).
Dropping their hull doesn't do much because the real problem is when there are enough of them the hull doesn't matter (and that they can run away before getting killed anyway), dropping their scan range doesn't really help because of how much else there is to spot for them, and you wouldn't want to completely remove their ability to go one sector over for creeping across the map because that's the whole premise behind EXP anyway.
Fighter-level fuel, though, leaves them with enough room to mix it up at an aleph or to push into a nearby sector (since they accelerate a heck of a lot faster than fighters and a fuel-cut would probably want a bit of a boost to that as well) but means if they try to go where the fighters go they can't boost back the way they can now. Miner defense in a refinery sector becomes a bit harder but EXP teams should be throwing OPs anywhere they want an actual presence anyway, and even with a big cut to fuel you can still pack enough into cargo to chase stuff around an aleph or keep up with a run on the next sector over because you really don't need more than one, MAYBE two ammo reloads (as opposed to fighters who are carrying fuel, ammo, and missiles most times). If you're using more than that before being able to dock with something, you probably belong in a fig.
Just some musings from someone who hasn't been around for a while.
Dropping their hull doesn't do much because the real problem is when there are enough of them the hull doesn't matter (and that they can run away before getting killed anyway), dropping their scan range doesn't really help because of how much else there is to spot for them, and you wouldn't want to completely remove their ability to go one sector over for creeping across the map because that's the whole premise behind EXP anyway.
Fighter-level fuel, though, leaves them with enough room to mix it up at an aleph or to push into a nearby sector (since they accelerate a heck of a lot faster than fighters and a fuel-cut would probably want a bit of a boost to that as well) but means if they try to go where the fighters go they can't boost back the way they can now. Miner defense in a refinery sector becomes a bit harder but EXP teams should be throwing OPs anywhere they want an actual presence anyway, and even with a big cut to fuel you can still pack enough into cargo to chase stuff around an aleph or keep up with a run on the next sector over because you really don't need more than one, MAYBE two ammo reloads (as opposed to fighters who are carrying fuel, ammo, and missiles most times). If you're using more than that before being able to dock with something, you probably belong in a fig.
Just some musings from someone who hasn't been around for a while.
What about making Fuel Capacity researchable in the Exp. Someone was talking about (I think it was KG) that for figs you have to upgrade missiles and weapons but for interceptors you only need the weapons, with researchable fuel capacity, commanders will now have to take into account something else appart from just the mini-guns. You could set the default int fuel capacity to something that still makes them capable of traveling at least one sector but no more, you will have to pay if you want your ints to do what they currently can.
If A is success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut. -- Albert Einstein
Tkela's dual scan range idea doesn't make any sense. We already have scouts, figs, and ints all with varying degrees of scan range. Adding a 'survey ship' would effectively be duplicating the function of one of the three basic ships we already have. Reducing an int's scan range would have no impact on whether they would run into asteroids or not. The only time you would run into an asteroid in an int is if you were attempting to scout with it which is just dumb. Once an asteroid is scouted you can see it with any scan range because it is a static rotating object. Running into a rock would just be pilot error.
Doubling the signature of rocks would only make them easier for scouts to find on the initial scout run... again, no real impact on the performance of ints outside the first 3-4 minutes of the game.
Reducing int scan range would help minimally but a miner hunting int still wouldn't have too much trouble finding a miner because good miner hunters are already checking the He3 rocks and the likely travel lanes between the He3 rocks and the ref or outpost. Finding miners would only be marginally more difficult given that ints have such low sig and usually ambush miners when they are stationary at the rock.
I'm for reducing fuel efficiency and raising the sig. Reducing fuel efficiency at the least though.
Doubling the signature of rocks would only make them easier for scouts to find on the initial scout run... again, no real impact on the performance of ints outside the first 3-4 minutes of the game.
Reducing int scan range would help minimally but a miner hunting int still wouldn't have too much trouble finding a miner because good miner hunters are already checking the He3 rocks and the likely travel lanes between the He3 rocks and the ref or outpost. Finding miners would only be marginally more difficult given that ints have such low sig and usually ambush miners when they are stationary at the rock.
I'm for reducing fuel efficiency and raising the sig. Reducing fuel efficiency at the least though.
What Allegiance needs is a little more cowbell. 