After thinking more about enh carriers being very hard to upgrade and suggesting a smaller drone to replace them, I though about this:
What about a new outpost type that can hold capital ships(and could upgrade carriers?)
At 1st, I though it was probably too crazy to be a good idea, but the more I think about it, the more I like it.
They'd be very usefull for upgrading enh carriers, but I also think it'd help early SY(Currently med class).
One of the main problem with MFs and sometime Assault ship is that they're forced to launch from a SY. In any serious game, the SY is usually heavily probed and HC can't be used for the 1st 4-5 sec of launch. The MF will usually be eyed all the way to wherever it goes and meet a large camp. The problem isn't only about probes, but also that when you only have 1 place to launch at, you're usually limited to 1 or 2 targets max and the enemy will know your move 5 mins before you do it.
Having several launch points could allow the creation of many interesting strategies with early SY.
I'm just throwing the idea to see what others think about it, so I'm not going to suggest any pricing or what type of rock it should build on or what kind of research you should get to have it.
Some point of discussion:
-This would create a new base, which could make it easier to spam cons to the enemy tech sector.
-If theres no research or easy and cheap research, people could start expanding with those along with regular ops. If the research is only usefull for SY, enh carriers still won't be upgradable.
Big outposts
Then they go supyard.Death3D wrote:QUOTE (Death3D @ Jul 9 2009, 04:12 PM) Also useful for fooling people into thinking you're going SY (opening big op?), making them go Sup and then bite with Exp?
Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
That would make them useful for SY, but would eliminate their other goal of allowing carrier upgrades without SY.Psychosis wrote:QUOTE (Psychosis @ Jul 9 2009, 08:27 PM) lets put it into SY, under maybe hvyclass, price TBD?
Last edited by Makida on Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
EDIT: How about this, a completely different (possibly stupid but maybe not) idea: Change Shipyard so that building the SY base does not instantly give you access to *any* SY tech until further requirements are met, but make it possible to get the base itself from the start for any faction, and at a lower price than now. The shipyard base itself can then function as a giant outpost!
So, from the start of the game, no matter what faction you chose, you can build a shipyard for, say, $8,000. However, the shipyard, when built, will give you access to no tech whatsoever. It will, in essence, simply be a giant heavy outpost. To further balance, it will have fewer hitpoints than SY bases do at present, making the base a bit easier to kill at this time. But: Once you get another tech-base, a new item of tech becomes available under shipyard, something like, "Basic Class" or whatever. This research costs something like $7,000 (to add to the $8,000 paid for the base, totalling $15,000). It has the presence of a tech-base as a pre-requisite, same as SY does right now (unless you are IC, same as now). It simply gives you access to all the tech that is in the current core available as soon as the SY is built. This research would also upgrade the SY base itself, making it as tough as it is in the current core. From this point on the Shipyard works exactly as it does now - except that additional shipyard bases now cost $8,000 to build instead of $15,000.
The final result: Every faction has access to "Big outposts" (i.e. tech-free Shipyard bases) from the start of the game, for $8,000 each. These are places where, for instance, carriers can dock for upgrades. It also means an extra un-galvable base that can be pushed/used to expand - but at a higher cost than an op, and it won't take as many ABs to kill as Shipyards do at present. (And it can be turned off with the SY switch if you don't want it!)
Should the team choose to, it can then buy the additional research for $7,000, making this base a full shipyard. The extra time required to complete this research is a nerf that balances out the ability to buy extra shipyards for less money later (though perhaps this research could be made to take a bit less time than other tech for this faction, esp. for Bios). At this point, we get a slight boost to shipyard: Namely, additional launch points for ships are now easier to get.
In the end, basically the same effect as Vlymoxyd's "big outpost" idea, but without actually having to create an entirely new kind of bases. Eh? Eh?
A possible tweak: Make the cost of the "Basic SY" research higher to balance this a bit better. It makes the total cost of getting SY tech higher than it is now, but this is compensated for by the ability to get more cap-ship launch and docking points more easily. Alternatively, make the basic base cost $10,000, twice the cost of an op, to better reflect the value of having an extra, un-galvable base to expand with. (But some balance must be found to make sure people at least occasionally actually get these things).
/EDIT.
So, from the start of the game, no matter what faction you chose, you can build a shipyard for, say, $8,000. However, the shipyard, when built, will give you access to no tech whatsoever. It will, in essence, simply be a giant heavy outpost. To further balance, it will have fewer hitpoints than SY bases do at present, making the base a bit easier to kill at this time. But: Once you get another tech-base, a new item of tech becomes available under shipyard, something like, "Basic Class" or whatever. This research costs something like $7,000 (to add to the $8,000 paid for the base, totalling $15,000). It has the presence of a tech-base as a pre-requisite, same as SY does right now (unless you are IC, same as now). It simply gives you access to all the tech that is in the current core available as soon as the SY is built. This research would also upgrade the SY base itself, making it as tough as it is in the current core. From this point on the Shipyard works exactly as it does now - except that additional shipyard bases now cost $8,000 to build instead of $15,000.
The final result: Every faction has access to "Big outposts" (i.e. tech-free Shipyard bases) from the start of the game, for $8,000 each. These are places where, for instance, carriers can dock for upgrades. It also means an extra un-galvable base that can be pushed/used to expand - but at a higher cost than an op, and it won't take as many ABs to kill as Shipyards do at present. (And it can be turned off with the SY switch if you don't want it!)
Should the team choose to, it can then buy the additional research for $7,000, making this base a full shipyard. The extra time required to complete this research is a nerf that balances out the ability to buy extra shipyards for less money later (though perhaps this research could be made to take a bit less time than other tech for this faction, esp. for Bios). At this point, we get a slight boost to shipyard: Namely, additional launch points for ships are now easier to get.
In the end, basically the same effect as Vlymoxyd's "big outpost" idea, but without actually having to create an entirely new kind of bases. Eh? Eh?
A possible tweak: Make the cost of the "Basic SY" research higher to balance this a bit better. It makes the total cost of getting SY tech higher than it is now, but this is compensated for by the ability to get more cap-ship launch and docking points more easily. Alternatively, make the basic base cost $10,000, twice the cost of an op, to better reflect the value of having an extra, un-galvable base to expand with. (But some balance must be found to make sure people at least occasionally actually get these things).
/EDIT.
Last edited by Makida on Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
I don't really like it. Frigates aren't supposed to be endgame tech. A frigate should be stoppable by any team that some semblance of a clue -- yes, much more difficult than a bomber or heavy bomber, but still easily within reach. And the frigate team has options too. They can bomb bases close to an aleph. IC frigs can cloak -- make it hard for the team to know when to drop. They can fake one sector and bomb another. They can walk to another sector and attack from two sides.
The solution to "frigates aren't unstoppable juggernaughts" is "buy cruisers" not "buy a second SY or a special SY-capable op. Not that cruisers are unstoppable juggernaughts either ... but at least they can rip.
Reducing the price of SY is a bad idea too. It should be expensive to push an ungalvable base IMO -- and yes, I say this as someone who bought 60K worth of Rix garrisons in an SY-off game a few nights ago. (I won eventually, but if I had it to all over again, I should probably have bought a tac *before* they got galvs and *before* it became a 3-sector con push).
Plus, think of Giga. 3k for a tin op or 8k for an ungalvable one? I don't think it's right. Make 'em build a tech con.
The solution to "frigates aren't unstoppable juggernaughts" is "buy cruisers" not "buy a second SY or a special SY-capable op. Not that cruisers are unstoppable juggernaughts either ... but at least they can rip.
Reducing the price of SY is a bad idea too. It should be expensive to push an ungalvable base IMO -- and yes, I say this as someone who bought 60K worth of Rix garrisons in an SY-off game a few nights ago. (I won eventually, but if I had it to all over again, I should probably have bought a tac *before* they got galvs and *before* it became a 3-sector con push).
Plus, think of Giga. 3k for a tin op or 8k for an ungalvable one? I don't think it's right. Make 'em build a tech con.
Globemaster_III wrote:QUOTE (Globemaster_III @ Jan 11 2018, 11:27 PM) as you know i think very little of cashto, cashto alway a flying low pilot, he alway flying a trainer airplane and he rented
And the solution to cruisers is Battleships, which ARE unstoppable juggernauts. $#@!ing skyripper 
Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
Well, make it an even $10,000 instead of $8,000 then. Plus, it can still be fairly fragile - the Giga version can be ungalvable, but not much tougher than, say, the IC heavy op, for example. Keep the research for basic SY more expensive than $5,000, say, the $7,000 that I mention here. The result - yes, Giga can push an ungalvable base, but it costs substantially more in early game. Later in the game, well, it's a reward for a strong economy - and hey, there have been some complaints about Giga needing a bit of a boost because their lt. bases are too easy to kill, so there ya go. Plus, if Giga (or any other faction) can easily push $10,000 bases, then it probably won't be too difficult for it to push a $15,000 base either, i.e. the current shipyard.cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Jul 10 2009, 01:47 AM) I don't really like it. Frigates aren't supposed to be endgame tech. A frigate should be stoppable by any team that some semblance of a clue -- yes, much more difficult than a bomber or heavy bomber, but still easily within reach. And the frigate team has options too. They can bomb bases close to an aleph. IC frigs can cloak -- make it hard for the team to know when to drop. They can fake one sector and bomb another. They can walk to another sector and attack from two sides.
The solution to "frigates aren't unstoppable juggernaughts" is "buy cruisers" not "buy a second SY or a special SY-capable op. Not that cruisers are unstoppable juggernaughts either ... but at least they can rip.
Reducing the price of SY is a bad idea too. It should be expensive to push an ungalvable base IMO -- and yes, I say this as someone who bought 60K worth of Rix garrisons in an SY-off game a few nights ago. (I won eventually, but if I had it to all over again, I should probably have bought a tac *before* they got galvs and *before* it became a 3-sector con push).
Plus, think of Giga. 3k for a tin op or 8k for an ungalvable one? I don't think it's right. Make 'em build a tech con.
Some balance point can be found somewhere between $8,000 and $15,000, where outright spamming these bases isn't easy unless you already have the econ to win anyway, but where it's cheap enough that someone might still want to buy it as an extra base for expanding, without necessarily intending to go SY.
Anywho, I think it's an interesting idea, but I agree that it might turn into cheese through the spamming of ungalvable bases. But I thought the big ops were an interesting idea, and wanted to suggest an alternative that does the same thing without... requiring the addition of a new kind of base to the game, and that works in an interesting way with current tech paths.
As for perking frigates, etc., well, it's still not as big an advantage as being able to rip. Again, some balance point can be found with the cost, where it gives a bit of a boost to Shipyard from where it is now, but doesn't make frigates unbeatable end-game tech or something.
Last edited by Makida on Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.