Belters keeping enh ships

[juckto]

QUOTE If you want to suggest a change please explain why it makes sense in a logical manner. Providing numbers, examples, comparisons, and maybe even doing a little research on your idea will make this entire project run much more smoothly.[/quote]

I've always felt that belters ability to keep enh ships is a tad overpowered. They went Tac and you followed the ACS advice of bomb them into the stone age? Not much good if it took you more than 4 minutes. You're going to be dealing with belter sf hunting your miners the entire game.
+Edit: Crono says it nicely:

QUOTE (CronoDroid @ May 15 2009, 07:37 PM) I've felt that this ability, while it should be kept to an extent (ie this idea) is indeed overpowered because no matter what you do, as long as the game lasts, the enemy will have ships to fight effectively with. If Belters managed to research Hunter3 and SFs, they'll ALWAYS have Hunter3 SFs. If they researched DF3, and pick up mini3 from the enemy with Enh Figs, they'll ALWAYS have Mini3/DF3 Enh Figs.

An integral part of this game is the fact that you can temporarily cripple the enemy by blowing up their techbase which gives you a few minutes or however long to destroy the enemy while he has no tech and is trying to rebuild his techbase. This is strategy of the highest order. I've seen games lost by inexperienced commanders because they could not or would not capitalize on a brief but EXTREMELY large advantage and finish the enemy.

Letting Belters keep Enh tech forever gets rid of a lot of this because if the enemy has DF3 Figs, they'll always have a defence capability that is close to Adv tech even if they have nothing of the sort. You SHOULD be able to cripple a team before destroying them. If Belters gets Adv Tech, you'll never be able to fully cripple them the same way you can cripple any other faction, which makes them overpowered in the late game.

This wouldn't get rid of this ability in most games but it is useful for protracted games where the enemy team may build and rebuild techbases many times over, tying Enh ships to Garrison would give opposing teams an option to get rid of SFs, or Ints, or figs once and for all even if there are no Tac rocks left on the map.

Anyway, Turkey had a nice idea in his DC core:
QUOTE Belters ability to keep enh level ships is tied to their garrison.[/quote]
For starters, note that this would only be a nerf to belter teams that are dual teching, and lose one tech and garr.
As such this is only a minor nerf to belters but will go a little way towards stopping the "omfg these $#@!ers just won't die" syndrome teams facing belters get.


Note: I'm not advocating that belter's ability to steal and use Mk II/III weapons be tied to their garrison. That's a completely different level of nerf. Although perhaps it should be considered.

[Makida]

QUOTE (juckto @ May 14 2009, 08:58 PM) I've always felt that belters ability to keep enh ships is a tad overpowered. They went Tac and you followed the ACS advice of bomb them into the stone age? Not much good if it took you more than 4 minutes. You're going to be dealing with belter sf hunting your miners the entire game.

That's not an explanation for why it's overpowered. It's a statement of a special ability Belters have. It's like me saying "Rixian guns have better range than other factions'! That means they can shoot you when you can't shoot them!" Yes, Belters have a unique advantage that makes them stronger in a particular way. Yes, this means some strategies that work against other factions won't work against them. I don't think stating these facts in itself is enough to prove that they should be changed.

[CronoDroid]

QUOTE (CronoDroid @ Oct 24 2008, 04:39 AM) Personally I've always found the fact that if Belters has a Tac, and it lives for more than four minutes you can have SFs plaguing you for the rest of the game, be it for another five minutes or another five hours.

I wonder if it is at all possible to have every Enh Ship tied to Garrison/Starbase so that if you kill their Garr it resets all ship avaliability. Yes, Belters can rebuild the garr and the Tac and get SFs again but it would require much more effort to do so. And they'd still keep all their ships as long as the garr stays alive.

BLAST FROM THA PAST!!

So yes, I would obviously support this idea.

Also girlyboy, a statement alone can be enough to prove a faction is overpowered in a certain respect. What if I stated that BIOS used to get Enh Carrier for free? That would be a statement of a unique BIOS ability, which was very, very, VERY overpowered. Maybe if you had more experience with this situation you would understand that sometimes a simple fact alone may imply something inherently overpowered. If you want an explanation, here you go:

I've felt that this ability, while it should be kept to an extent (ie this idea) is indeed overpowered because no matter what you do, as long as the game lasts, the enemy will have ships to fight effectively with. If Belters managed to research Hunter3 and SFs, they'll ALWAYS have Hunter3 SFs. If they researched DF3, and pick up mini3 from the enemy with Enh Figs, they'll ALWAYS have Mini3/DF3 Enh Figs. An integral part of this game is the fact that you can temporarily cripple the enemy by blowing up their techbase which gives you a few minutes or however long to destroy the enemy while he has no tech and is trying to rebuild his techbase. This is strategy of the highest order. I've seen games lost by inexperienced commanders because they could not or would not capitalize on a brief but EXTREMELY large advantage and finish the enemy. Letting Belters keep Enh tech forever gets rid of a lot of this because if the enemy has DF3 Figs, they'll always have a defence capability that is close to Adv tech even if they have nothing of the sort. You SHOULD be able to cripple a team before destroying them. If Belters gets Adv Tech, you'll never be able to fully cripple them the same way you can cripple any other faction, which makes them overpowered in the late game.

This wouldn't get rid of this ability in most games but it is useful for protracted games where the enemy team may build and rebuild techbases many times over, tying Enh ships to Garrison would give opposing teams an option to get rid of SFs, or Ints, or figs once and for all even if there are no Tac rocks left on the map.

Belters are already the second most dominant late game faction (argubably more than TF), and they're not half bad during the earlier stages of the game. They're currently very strong and should get a nerf anyhow.

[Makida]

Ah, 'k then. Sorry, I'm trying to avoid posting here due to lack of experience, but Belters, and I have to play the game anyway, after all, experience or not.

I still think faction stats would be a good thing to have before speaking with a high degree of confidence about which factions are generally overpowered and need nerfs, though...

[Weylin]

wait, I thought they don't keep Adv tech, but fall to Enh upon losing the tech base.

[HSharp]

They keep all tech but can only fly Enh ships, that means if Belt's Adv Sup gets blown up they still keep any tech reasearched like galvs and gat3 but they don't have any ships that can mount galvs anymore (unless they get omni's which can).

[cashto]

QUOTE (juckto @ May 14 2009, 05:58 PM) For starters, note that this would only be a nerf to belter teams that are dual teching, and lose one tech and garr.

Which is exactly why it will be a symbollic gesture rather than an actual nerf.

If a Belter's nerf is needed (and I'm not saying it is), then the right thing to do is tie mk-3 tech to a techbase. Most of Belter's strength is in being able to keep any mk-2 tech and ships they acquire, even after the techbase is blown up -- but being able to keep mk-3 items is just pure cheese.

[juckto]

QUOTE (cashto @ May 16 2009, 05:59 AM) Which is exactly why it will be a symbollic gesture rather than an actual nerf.

Baby steps.

[zombywoof]

QUOTE (cashto @ May 15 2009, 10:59 AM) Which is exactly why it will be a symbollic gesture rather than an actual nerf.

If a Belter's nerf is needed (and I'm not saying it is), then the right thing to do is tie mk-3 tech to a techbase. Most of Belter's strength is in being able to keep any mk-2 tech and ships they acquire, even after the techbase is blown up -- but being able to keep mk-3 items is just pure cheese.

For sure. Mini3 enh figs with just a basic sup? e.e

Mini3 scouts have to stay though

[Adept]

Tying the ships to garrison is a dynamite idea. I just played in a game where we bombed a belters TAC in something like 6 min from it going up, but that still meant facing util 2 SFs the whole rest of the game. We bombed their garrison soon after, but the situation remained till the end (they fought on with the sup).