Technoflux Lead Indicators

[Buyo]

How to start hmm.. well I think it would be a good start to say that my proposal is to have them removed. Now, why do I want them removed? well because they are lame from my point of view.

I know this is not a good reason or very insightful so I will try to explain a little, alleg is a strategy game, but its base is a FPS, many abilities or traits are needed to be a good alleg player, I can think of the main ones like, experience, situational awareness and ability to listen and not $#@! around when is needed, I'm probably missing some more but you get the idea. BUT I think the most basic one is the ability to aim, sooner or later you're going to need to shoot something, like an enemy ship or friendly ships with nans, if you can't aim for @#(! you can't be a good alleg player, I'm not saying people need to have weed-like aiming skills to be good, but I do think you need to have at least a DECENT aim to be good, what's decent? well... I don't know I consider myself decent, not good but not too bad. So anyway, all those other skills doesn't matter if you can't aim for @#(!, sure you can probe all game or be the guy that eyes everything, but what does it matter if you see the con, miner, bomber if you can't hit an elephant with a gun.

So, my point is that, once TF gets a ship with lead indicators, it's a bitch to go against them because everyone on TF suddenly becomes someone with a decent aim PLUS, TF weapons have NO spread which I think makes lead indicator even better for them. It's easier for them to kill miners, D miners, etc. etc.

Now, TF late game is even worse, hvy ints, lead indicator, no spread, paper thin profile. Bombing against this... well I don't recall anyone trying to bomb against this, probably because it would be like suicide to the max. I have even seen tp2 drops with 15 plus figbees fail many times due to the same lead indicators, the only thing that I've seen that is really effective is SBs, BUT as you can imagine mining against these heavy ints it's super hard.

TF sup, not much better than the exp, 4 guns, no spread, lead indicators as well, and usually frickin heavy plasma 2, also all that I said before about exp applies to sup, ANNNNNNNNND, if you go sup as well, it's also a bitch to galv against TF sup, woooooooo for ripping in dropping loads of plasma 2, plus 4 guns with lead indicators

The other factions can get it too, BUT the other weapons have spread (unless you mount tf guns as belters) AAAAAAND you need a carrier which costs uhm.. which one is the cheapest? giga 3750?, which can be killed anyway PLUS it doesn't give you the lead on all map, just on the sector it is, and it's very limited.

SOOOOOOOOO... yea that's all I got I think, maybe I will drop some numbers later today or tomorrow to see how it really plays out looking at the numbers.

My suggestion: Just take them off.

Edit I forgot to mention that when I'm in TF games and they get sup or exp, even some players who normally don't pass the 20 kb, get it to like 44, I won't say names but I'll just say I saw someone who is largely considered as a bad player with a 45 kb in a tf expansion game.

[DasSmiter]

QUOTE You have chosen to ignore all posts from: Buyo. View this post :: Un-ignore Buyo[/quote]

[Xeretov]

The lead indicator on TF is to compensate for the lack of spread on their guns, which in turn compensates for their lack of missiles.

TF - like Rix - is a faction with no missiles. However unlike Rix, TF has no PW damage bonus and instead rely on their highly accurate weapons to do the job. I do agree that the lead indicator makes this a bit cheesy though, but there are arguments on both sides and a few other factors to consider.

First off, TF hvy ints are a bit of a poor example. They're cheesy in my opinion not because of the weapons, but because of the paper thin profile, low mass, good hull (TF has a faction modifier here of 1.0, most are 0.9) and high acceleration (faction mod of 1.15). Pretty much any pilot who knows how to use their vertical thrusters in a TF int is hard to hit from the front, back or side. On the same note, that thin profile helps offset their slow speed by letting them survive through a bit of fire to get to their target. I personally feel this is good planning, but that its a bit too thin.

My suggestion? Up the scale as a temporary measure, although I do know they're already a bit wide. Ideally somebody could come up with a new or modified model for it, but I'm not going to demand that. They're already the slowest ints in the game, making them a bit easier to hit should alleviate some of the issues with them.

Secondly, TF fighters feel cheesy because of plasgens. I've got a couple bones to pick here though. The first thing that comes to mind is people who keep their counters loaded against TF. I'm not sure what their reasoning is, but CMs will not spoof a lead indicator or a plasgen. Guess what happens when you leave the counters at home? Thats right, you get more accel, which in turns means you have a bit more power in your sidethrusters. That extra accel also helps to level the field against TF's above mentioned factional acceleration bonus and is more noticable because they have zero dispersion guns.

And third - because I know this argument is going to come up - I know interceptors do not carry missiles. TF figs having lead indicators & 0 dispersion guns compensates for that lack, but their ints are due to the slow speed. Yes, their slow speed. Anyone who has tried to HTT or int bomb a base as TF will know just how painfully slow their expansion path's base killing tech really is. A lot of pilots are pretty much useless in interceptors when trying to forcecap/intbomb, TF ints make sure that the people you have out flying cover instead of nanning can at least kill their target. Its not like TF figbees are all that great either, although ripping in a couple good dogfighters in adv. figs to cover them works wonders.

Regarding plasgens: I think plas and hvy plas are fine as is, and I've never seen an issue with normal plasgens. The problem is in the comparison - most non TF sup teams don't buy mine pack, but most TF sup teams do buy hvy plas. As a side note, this means I haven't gotten to play with minepacks as much as I'd like to so my opinion is somewhat limited. I would say hvy plas is better than minepacks because they will hit the target more often (minepacks have a radius of 75m, hvy plas has a range of 160m) although a minepack will do far more damage than a plas gen at typical speeds. This also means a hvy plas takes less skill to use than a minepack. Does this mean minepacks need a perk of some sort? Maybe a topic for another discussion.

Some fun facts:

-Basic TF scouts, figs and lt. ints do not have lead indicators.
-TF has to get a tech up to have more than basic scouts
-Techbases cost money
-Buying ship tech costs money
-Killing TF's miners instead of trying to rack up kills before they get lead indicators may be more useful
-TF is meant to have a strong lategame


Now, on to options. I would say leave TF's lead indicators alone. I know Adept's crusade against them will swing its burning & pillaging course by my house for saying that but its one of the faction's defining points. I would rather fix the TF hvy int's profile and maybe find out if hvy plas is too strong compared to the minepacks its supposed to replace, or if said minepacks need a perk to make coms more willing to buy them.

However, if the decision is made to remove the lead indicators, then I suggest increasing the projectile speed on the TF guns a bit. Before all the math types jump on me, I know this would increase the range. The projectile lifetime would also have to be adjusted down to keep the actual range the same. But increasing the bullet speed ought to make them a bit easier to aim without the lead indicator, and might even help the people who currently suffer on TF due to high ping times to hit their targets. Either way I wouldn't remove the zero dispersion type weapons, just change the mechanics in which they are used.

[apochboi]

Loving this Xeretov guy. Please keep posting.

[Adept]

QUOTE (apochboi @ May 2 2009, 10:38 AM) Loving this Xeretov guy. Please keep posting.

He is pretty über isn't he.

Here's a few notes from the remove-the-lead-indicator crusader. I'll keep it short.

a) They are not just cheesy, they are boring. Like Buyo says this game is usually about skill, especially in the dogfighting, but the lead indicator takes away half the challenge (yes, I know they can be "thrown off" but honestly it still make high deflection shooting incredibly easy even for us non-broodwich people).

b) A small amount of spread and no lead indicator would even up the TF experience when it comes to ping. At the moment TF is great with ping 60, distinctly mediocre with ping 170 and just bad with anything above that. I'd like a spread that is halfway that of dis and the relevant TF mini/gat. The power and/or speed of the guns should be raised to keep the combat power up. Should be easy to keep them powerful with those extra guns.

[Sealer]

Leave the unique tf guns alone. And I have no complains against tf either when flying against or for them.

[juckto]

QUOTE Guess what happens when you leave the counters at home? Thats right, you get more accel, which in turns means you have a bit more power in your sidethrusters.[/quote]
The mass of CM is 0.25. Considering the lightest ship in the game (the int) has a mass of 20, the gain in accel is absolutely negligible.
Consider a basic int with 2 miniguns and boost1. Taking the CM off will improve the thrust-mass (power-weight) ratio of an int from 12.371 to a whopping 12.5. Woooooo.

[Valiance]

What about removing their lead indicators, but allowing them to relay lead indicators?
That would affect exp the most (crappy int scan range), which is, argueably, the cheesiest TF techpath with their sliver thin ints.

It wouldnt solve the problem, but it would tone them down a little bit if y'all really do think the are too cheesey

[badpazzword]

QUOTE (Buyo @ May 2 2009, 05:02 AM) sure you can probe all game or be the guy that eyes everything, but what does it matter if you see the con, miner, bomber if you can't hit an elephant with a gun

Luckily the Alleg paradox protects me. If I can eye it I can't kill it. If I can kill it I can't eye it.

[Adept]

I wanted to add that aside from the lead indicators and silly int models, I've grown oddly fond of TF. The bombers are fun, and function as nifty gunships when needed. The peculiarities of the TF miners and cons are interesting features.

I'm trying to say that the character of TF is not tied up to the lead pipper, at least not for me. If that goes, I'll actually start to enjoy this faction I used to hate. The ships are still butt ugly, of course.