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Is setting TF's lead indicators to relay on their adv. and heavy scouts really going to solve the problem?

Seems the biggest complaint in this thread has not been the power behind the guns, but rather the fact that people who can't normally aim are able to score kills when flying this faction.

Currently the basic level TF ships (basic scouts, basic figs, & lt. ints) do not have lead indicators. Setting it to relay would slow down the speed at which a TF team acquires lead indicators from enh. tech (~6 mins after their techbase goes up) to probably the adv. or later level for time. It would also force smart TF comms to upgrade the garrison and get adv. scouts up to help with offense & defense (given TF tech prices I don't have much a problem with this).

But what happens after said scouts come up? Any decently sized offensive or defensive operation would only need 1-2 scouts at best to give everyone on the run lead indicators. The pilots on the team go back to being able to aim, the enemy team gets shredded and then we hear more complaints about TF on the forums from people who don't know how to sidethrust.

Fun fact: Because of the 0 dispersion, TF has an incredibly hard time hitting a sidethrusting target at max range. They have to close the distance to get in some decent hits just like everyone else, at which point the lead indicator isn't such a big help. Its only a huge advantage against ships that have to fly in a straight line, notably FB runs. On the same note, just about every FB run I've seen a TF team stop has been a 4-5K drop. Anything closer, or with a distraction run has usually been successful, either because TF is slow to get back and relaunch, or slow to scramble from the home TP before the base dies.


I would be fine with this change, but I do not think removing the lead indicator or setting it to relay is going to solve the problem that everyone is complaining about. Delay it? Yes, but we could already do that just by removing leads from the enh. level ships and giving it to the adv. Would this keep TF's late game strength? Yes, which I support. Would it encourage teamwork? Yes again, if you count having one scout flying circles nearby teamwork. Would people still complain after TF reached its endgame? I'm going to say yes. So what would we change then?

phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ May 22 2009, 07:17 PM) Huh? So you want to remove the lead indicators, but you don't want to have scouts relay lead indicators because it'd be too hard to use the ints without a scout nearby?

Your a retard

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Nicely summed up Xeretov

Xeretov wrote:QUOTE (Xeretov @ May 22 2009, 11:32 AM) I would be fine with this change, but I do not think removing the lead indicator or setting it to relay is going to solve the problem that everyone is complaining about. Delay it? Yes, but we could already do that just by removing leads from the enh. level ships and giving it to the adv. Would this keep TF's late game strength? Yes, which I support. Would it encourage teamwork? Yes again, if you count having one scout flying circles nearby teamwork. Would people still complain after TF reached its endgame? I'm going to say yes. So what would we change then?

Shoot the scout first. How hard is that?

@Hsharp, at least I know the difference between 'your' and 'you're'

Yes because TF scouts are high signature and completely defenseless with plasgens, lt. booster and dual/triple gatts. And the escorts with lead indicators won't be able to kill anyone going for the scout.

I'm all for it though. Yes please chase the scout while the escorts mow your fighters down. Yes please chase the scout while we hose down your miner & nans. Yes please chase the scout while your bomber run dies.

You're a retard.

So removing or changing the lead indicator would greatly compromise the ints ability at range. This means the int has to get closer which means its also easier to hit which means you no longer need to increase the size of the int 10%.

This way if pilots have the ability to aim at range with 0 dispersal, they will kick ass (as they should), if not they will have to get up close making them an easy target. This actually balances things quite nice now that I think about it, especially if you remove the 10% size nerf in cc05.

Shizoku wrote:QUOTE (Shizoku @ May 22 2009, 04:51 PM) especially if you remove the 10% size nerf in cc05.

Just for the record, the scale on TF ints was not changed in CC05, or any other version of CC. It did come up as a suggestion however.

I still stand by my earlier suggestion of increasing the projectile speed a little bit if we remove the lead indicators (which we should). TF has good reasons for having accurate weapons and unless people start whining about missiles being too easy to lock then those reasons do need to be considered.

The ROF suggestion is nice but has flaws too. Bumping it up without changing anything else causes TF to do significantly more damage per weapon and second than other factions, and also causes ammo to run out much quicker. We'd have to either adjust the damage down and/or increase the ammo supply as well. This sounds like balance issues that would take a lot of testing & valuable time to get working right, time which unfortunately not a lot of people have or are willing to spend. This was an issue in the later versions of DN, and TF wasn't played very much in DN 4.60 due to the ROF adjustments.

Increasing the projectile speed by a small percentage, just enough to make them easier to aim (20% comes to mind as a good start) would avoid most of said balance issues. The theoretical damage output would remain the same, the only thing that changes is the accuracy. It would still allow the non-whores to aim a bit easier (again TF has good reasons for doing this) but would make a noticeable difference between the people who can aim guns and the ones who can't. That difference already exists with other factions who don't have lead indicators, so I think it would bring TF into line more than just delaying when they get their indicators.

currently rix has the fastest bullets with a 20% increase in bullet speed, i would like to keep this. I would support a 10% increase in speed, maybe 15% but definatly adjust the range so they only get the std 400m. Also for the uninformed tf miniguns are fully unnerfed, while tf gats/ ac and i think others still maintain their 10% or so nerf to rof. i made an excel spreadsheet http://www.scribd.com/doc/15484180/Damage-Table comparing them (note that the previous cc team didnt mention how they totally unnerfed tf miniguns ).

On the personal note, giving one faction lead indicators is retarded because it takes away from the theme of alleg where lots of skill is required. I find it interesting that the same people who always whine about alleg being quake in space want tf to keep their leads

Xeretov wrote:QUOTE (Xeretov @ May 22 2009, 01:44 PM) Yes because TF scouts are high signature and completely defenseless with plasgens, lt. booster and dual/triple gatts. And the escorts with lead indicators won't be able to kill anyone going for the scout.

TF scouts with their shield have a scan of 125. That means that as long as you're near a miner/base/friendly scout you're going to see them before they give the ints their reticules.

excuse me? you realy should stop posting game balance suggestions if you have no idea how it works

phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ May 22 2009, 06:53 PM) TF scouts with their shield have a scan of 125.

Yes but TF scouts won't be giving lead indicators now will they? Only the adv. and hvys will.

And both adv. and hvy scouts have 50% sig base, 100% with shields. Not 75 and 125.

Unless you're suggesting we give basic TF scouts the indicator too. Which would probably make things worse than they are now since the basic level ships - which currently don't have indicators - will get them near scouts.

This is pointless though. So what if you eye the scout? Please go chase it down while I kill your miner.

The indicator problem is not solved by delaying when TF gets it. Either remove it or don't.