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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:48 pm
by raumvogel
Here,Girly, Cookie bought this just for you:
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:54 pm
by Dorjan
girlyboy wrote:QUOTE (girlyboy @ Jun 14 2011, 03:34 PM) ^ Men who have a wife at home (or working part-time) who does the lion's share of the housework and child-rearing are more likely to be able to make such a "sacrifice". Women rarely have a stay-at-home husband (or even just a husband willing to do a bigger share of the housework) filling that support role for them, because both men and women still tend to think of housework and child-rearing as primarily women's work. You could say it's a choice that women won't sacrifice their personal lives as much for work, but it would also be accurate to say that there's a lot of cultural pressure that makes it a lot easier for men to make that sacrifice than for women, and that tends to give men a better chance of having a partner who will support them with housework and the like and make it easier for them to balance work and life.
That's still a form of sexism -- not the kind of sexism where an evil sexist boss consciously discriminates against women (though I'm sure that still exists out there too), but a kind of ingrained cultural sexism that conditions us to treat men and women differently in ways that ultimately lead to unfair gaps like this. (Not to mention that it's also unfair that there's a lot of cultural pressure against men who want to prioritize their domestic life more).
But while I disagree that it "has nothing to do with gender" (it has a lot to do with gender), it's definitely true that you could call it "lifestyle discrimination" as well, and it definitely sucks that most employers don't pay more attention to work-life balance issues. It's just that because of gender issues, this tends to impact women's careers more than men's.
I have to argue here. You're not in the position to speak about this with personal experience I guess? I'll give you a real example:
My wife fell pregnant. At that time she earnt more than me, and my job allowed weekend work and hers didn't. It made more sense for me to give up full time work and work evenings and weekends and for her to continue to work.
She refused. Why? because she WANTED to be with the kids.
I think you forget there is a REAL bond which most woman get with the kids that most men just don't have.
I would put a lot of the fact there are more situations like mine where the man wanted to, but were prevented from rather than not wanting to do "womans work".
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:39 pm
by SgtMajor
Sorry, I was busy getting really drunk this whole week/weekend. Anyways I love how far from the original post this threat has traveled.
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:33 pm
by Broodwich
hey guys whats going on in this thread
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:38 pm
by Gandalf2
QUOTE So I take it that you are a proponent of men and women being treated exactly the same?[/quote]
I'm not. Men & women are different and should be treated as such. One is not better than the other; each have their own strengths & weaknesses.
For example, let's treat men & women exactly the same and abolish women's athletics & they can just join in with the men.
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:02 pm
by NightRychune
why not? women can take steroids just as well as men do
Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:02 am
by Makida
Dorjan, 1) that's anecdotal evidence, and 2) my whole point was that this sort of thing is influenced by culture. Your wife's decision didn't arise in a vacuum, and while you could argue for biological foundations, getting back to the whole nature vs. nurture debate, I think cultural bias plays a very major role.
Gandalf: Each has their own strengths and weaknesses? So who gets to decide who gets what? What if a particular woman wants to have typically masculine strengths, or vice versa? Athletics I have to admit to having no specific opinion about. Maybe it could be divided by weight/strength class or something instead of gender. Women's athletics certainly isn't getting very much attention the way things are now, so some sort of change would probably be good.
Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:33 pm
by Dorjan
girlyboy wrote:QUOTE (girlyboy @ Jun 15 2011, 05:02 AM) Dorjan, 1) that's anecdotal evidence, and 2) my whole point was that this sort of thing is influenced by culture. Your wife's decision didn't arise in a vacuum, and while you could argue for biological foundations, getting back to the whole nature vs. nurture debate, I think cultural bias plays a very major role.
No chance, everyone and their dogs were telling her to keep her job. Even her father and mother.
If the whole community tried to convince her otherwise surely that means it's evidence against culture?
Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:48 pm
by Bard
girlyboy wrote:QUOTE (girlyboy @ Jun 15 2011, 12:02 AM) 1) that's anecdotal evidence
Pfft.
EVERYONE on the Internet knows that the plural of "anecdote" is "data"!!
Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:59 pm
by notjarvis
Dorjan wrote:QUOTE (Dorjan @ Jun 15 2011, 01:33 PM) If the whole community tried to convince her otherwise surely that means it's evidence against culture?
Nah - cultural upbringing is not purely to do with the people you are in contact with as an adult. It will go all the way back to birth practically.
It goes all the way back to being given a dolly to play with when young rather than a toy car, or watching my little pony and the cabbage pach kids rather than transformers.
it's very difficult to disassociate cultural influences and how it influences who you are now.
Anyway - I'm a bit dubious of the whole "women have a special bond that men don't get claims" as I am of any claim for mystical specialness. Fathers can be as close to kids as the mothers in practically every way (except the obvious physical limitations), and it's that sort of thinking that leads to the court system preferring mothers in nearly all cases (to bring this discussion almost back to the start....)
That's not to say anything bad about your wife's decision - I believe kids benefit from as much time with 1 or both parents as possible - frankly, I would love to give up my job and bring up the kids, while my wife goes to work, or to both go part time in some way and divide the kids time between us.
This would be impossible for us though, personally, without putting the family into poverty.