TF and Dreg int scale

Broodwich · Post by **Broodwich** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:10 am

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SpkWill · Post by **SpkWill** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:35 am

@Rain
Not sure why you would get insulted, we are talking about balance issues. It's understandable people would be annoyed since CC has a history of poor releases concerning models, the TF scout for instance. Even after that got fixed the new scout was still far superior and I didn't particularly enjoy the month or so of TF games that followed.

@Adept
The IC int you posted has wings and I don't see anyone complaining it's to easy to hit. I don't really see why you are so obsessed with having close mapped hitboxes?

@Spunky
Yeah the new dreg scout is pretty annoying, I mean it's not impossible to hit but definitely harder to hit side on.

I have to agree with Viru when he says that Omni were really well implemented, the old TF and Dreg were a lot easier to hit as well. Guess why?

Spunkmeyer · Post by **Spunkmeyer** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:57 am

SpkWill wrote:QUOTE (SpkWill @ Feb 13 2011, 08:35 PM) @Adept
The IC int you posted has wings and I don't see anyone complaining it's to easy to hit. I don't really see why you are so obsessed with having close mapped hitboxes?

He is right though - if you apply the autobox to something like the Dreg int it will have huge hittable areas (below the fuselage and above the wings for example) that are not on the model. Such areas on the IC int (and a lot of the MS models, although not all) are much smaller, because they are fairly basic shapes. It'll be worse with more complex models that have a lot of parts "jutting out".

Basically Viru's last post is on the money - we really need the hitbox to conform to certain parameters and at the same time to the model itself (like the IC int). But it doesn't solve the immediate issue. It seems the answer is to tweak the current Dreg hitbox rather than swing from one extreme to the other.

raingriffin · Post by **raingriffin** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:41 am

@will

>Not sure why you would get insulted, we are talking about balance issues. It's understandable people would be annoyed since CC has a history of poor >releases concerning models, the TF scout for instance. Even after that got fixed the new scout was still far superior and I didn't particularly enjoy the >month or so of TF games that followed.

What really triggered it was to be called an idiot, arguably a balance issue. That's when i felt insulted. Before i just felt tired. I can relate to feeling frustrated due to fixes being needed and it being wrong to do that on the player's skin. (MS docet). Still what none seems to remember is the TF scout model (together with another scout model) had been in beta trial for over two months before its release (or was it even three).
I had advertised it multiple times through FAO and on IRC, i asked for feedback, which never came, about the hitbox and the mounts.

The feedback came only when it was pushed through on trial status (Spidey was well ready to take it out if it didn't work well enough) it has then been decided to go on with it by fixes (again not by me). It's something i have no direct or indirect control on since once the model is ready and done (and tested at least for consistency) i release it as free art and it's open to anyone for use. After that i really don't go back on it unless someone asks me to (the scout model lost some hitbox pieces during the first porting so i had to redo it and i tried to correct the mounts on the fig and the other later on).

That said, the big issue is not that they are problematic balance-wise: every model i could design would be, cause there is no way to make everyone happy, there will always be someone who will have troubles hitting it somehow unless it's fat enough. I agree tho that lag and close hitboxes can be a hassle. And i've repeatedly offered to design hitboxes with a higher profile (for example the new TF miner hasn't got a close mapped hitbox between the prongs, nor on the back, you can hit a fair amount of empty space, cause miners are indeed there to be shot and one doesn't need to be overly picky).

The issue in my eyes is that someone gets to say it's "poor work" without really knowing anything else than their own idea of how things went. And again there isn't just me in the community, if you feel what i do is not enough, step up and work on it, i never banned anyone from polishing, modifying or scrapping it. But if all you can do is pull trash, then wtf.

Adept · Post by **Adept** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:23 pm

SpkWill wrote:QUOTE (SpkWill @ Feb 14 2011, 04:35 AM) @Adept
The IC int you posted has wings and I don't see anyone complaining it's to easy to hit. I don't really see why you are so obsessed with having close mapped hitboxes?

Hmm, ok I'll bite.

Sheff, why do you think IC sup has been the redheaded stepchild of the IC family? By the numbers it should be a very good sup path. You can't get galved back, you have gun perks, missile perks and strong hull. By all that, IC sup should be not only decent, but one of the best.

It isn't. People didn't like flying it, and the IC sup team tends to get slaughtered. You don't think this is because of the huge hitboxes of the ships?

/edit I have a few more pictures of the IC and Dreg int models I'll mash up and post later. Top of the models this time.

SpkWill · Post by **SpkWill** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:18 pm

The hitboxes are only as big as giga/omni/old tf/GT etc. The reason people particularly complain about IC sup is they join IC expecting exp. Sup as a whole is hated as a techpath by whores because it's only fun if you team has a level of teamwork/co-ordination that you simply don't see in the average pu game. You can almost always enjoy flying an int even if your team is losing horribly. No amount of model re-balancing will change that.

The amount of changes CC has made to try and correct the balance between sup and exp is staggering. Yet they constantly focus on improving the fighting capability of figs or making sup cheaper, whilst ignoring the elephant in the room which is bombing. God forbid you voobs have to use teamwork and co-ordination instead of flying around spamming qfs at the nearest int.

spideycw · Post by **spideycw** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:38 pm

raingriffin wrote:QUOTE (raingriffin @ Feb 14 2011, 05:41 AM) The feedback came only when it was pushed through on trial status (Spidey was well ready to take it out if it didn't work well enough) it has then been decided to go on with it by fixes (again not by me). It's something i have no direct or indirect control on since once the model is ready and done (and tested at least for consistency) i release it as free art and it's open to anyone for use. After that i really don't go back on it unless someone asks me to (the scout model lost some hitbox pieces during the first porting so i had to redo it and i tried to correct the mounts on the fig and the other later on).

Well said. Feel free to blame me for releasing said models, instead of Rain for making them.

Anyway the problems with having hull conforming hitboxes were well discussed and frankly it's just too hard to do for many of the most unusual models.

Adept · Post by **Adept** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:39 pm

SpkWill wrote:QUOTE (SpkWill @ Feb 14 2011, 07:18 PM) The amount of changes CC has made to try and correct the balance between sup and exp is staggering. Yet they constantly focus on improving the fighting capability of figs or making sup cheaper, whilst ignoring the elephant in the room which is bombing. God forbid you voobs have to use teamwork and co-ordination instead of flying around spamming qfs at the nearest int.

I was looking at that just the other day. I found the 10% scale reduction and increased fuel for enh and adv figs (oddly leaving basic figs untouched). On the other hand heavy boosters were removed, taking out serious adv sup dogfighting cheese. I'm probably forgetting something.

As it is though, sup isn't much fun to fly with it's crappy acceleration and limited fuel, nor is it very powerful even in squad games were voobish farting around shouldn't be such an issue.

raingriffin · Post by **raingriffin** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:00 pm

spideycw wrote:QUOTE (spideycw @ Feb 14 2011, 06:38 PM) Well said. Feel free to blame me for releasing said models, instead of Rain for making them.

Not what i meant, actually i'd have to thank Spidey for even giving them a chance to make it in game.
But the fact remains i wish they didn't raise this ruckus.

NightRychune · Post by **NightRychune** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:29 pm

Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ Feb 14 2011, 10:39 AM) I was looking at that just the other day. I found the 10% scale reduction and increased fuel for enh and adv figs (oddly leaving basic figs untouched). On the other hand heavy boosters were removed, taking out serious adv sup dogfighting cheese. I'm probably forgetting something.

As it is though, sup isn't much fun to fly with it's crappy acceleration and limited fuel, nor is it very powerful even in squad games were voobish farting around shouldn't be such an issue.

the difference in fuel between figs and ints isn't that large, and in terms of paperdoll numbers figs actually have higher acceleration than ints do, even under full load

they use much different thrust/mass ratios, though (figs are 900:36 and ints are 300:20) which is what causes the booster performance differences and why ints get a top speed of 300 while enh figs get a top speed of ~200 with booster1

it's also worth noting that every fig (except belters) has a .5 lateral thrust modifier which makes them much, much easier to hit in any circumstance

I just went through and checked out some modified numbers on figs in-game, and it certainly seems like everyone has been looking at all of the wrong fields in order to make adjustments to fighter performance for the past ~5 years.

with that in mind, I have a solution to the int vs. fig performance issue that will put the whole thing to rest once and for all so i can actually move on to more pressing matters