TF and Dreg int scale

[Adept]

It would be nice to hear how the cc_11 change in TF acceleration has effected things. Is TF still annoyingly hard to hit. It's not hard to drop the acceleration further if needed, as it's still effectively 1.25.

Anyway, there have also been comments about the ships size and shape. The TF int model is actually rather large, but it's shape may require making it larger still. Here's a comparison of the true IC int hitbox and the TF one (which has a wysiwyg hitbox so not graphics trickery needed).

The hittable area seems to be about the same, but different shape. Add the 1.44 accel in CC_10 and earlier, and it's no wonder that ship was annoyingly hard to hit with any lag.

/edit While I'm at it, I did the same with the new dreg int. Hittability from head in isn't everything in Allegiance of course, but it's the easiest measuring stick. Looks like both of these could do with an increase. Dreg int is big but not quite as hittable as the IC one still. More fragile and with less firepower of course, but still.







/technical jargon: The pictures are from ships facing each other at a 200m range, and on maximum zoom. Both clients are on the same computer and screen, so there should be no errors possible.

/jargon 2 Note that the two pictures aren't exactly the same size as I cropped them manually. I can adjust later if needed. The relative size of the IC int hitbox outline compared to the dreg / TF int is correct in both pictures still.

[Makida]

Um... I may be wrong, but it seems to me the assumption being made here is that all three ships should be equally "hittable."

[NightRychune]

welp

adept still doesn't get it at all

it's not about LOL AN IC INT CAN KILL A DREG INT HEAD ON JUST FINE

or

LOL AN IC INT CAN KILL A TF INT HEAD ON JUST FINE

The side and top profiles matter far more in actual gameplay than the front profile, the TF int isn't good because it's narrow head-on, it's good because it can move and boost around anything it's engaging and be pretty difficult to hit. TF is also still extremely unbalanced because TF sup and tac both suck, and their miners spend far too little time on helium rocks. TF ints also don't have 25% superior acceleration than other ints. They have 13.6 accel under full load, other ints have 11.5. It's an ~18% difference, not 25%.

The old dreg int was much, much easier to hit in engagements that matter (side/top profiles) and this one is much harder to hit in similar situations. It's not even a problem with the scale, it's a problem with the model itself. They're essentially the shape of a narrow wedge when the previous models were a sizable pyramid. You have problems here as well because you're trying to balance models with hull-conforming hitboxes against models with more artificial hitboxes (which in most cases work fine and have for a very long time). If the IC int hitbox was changed to be perfectly hull-conforming, there would probably be issues with trying to hit it. Same with the Bios or Giga ints. At this point, you're just piling @#(! on that uses a new framework without touching the old one, and now we have an absurdly $#@!ed up patchwork mess that should probably be ripped apart and re-built which won't get done.

You have this problem with the IC fig. The old model was scaled down so many times to make it a little harder to hit and more survivable, and then you just plugged in the new one without touching the scale at all, making them the most survivable fig in the game when IC sup already had a host of advantages with higher weapon damage, more ammo, better missiles, an energy perk and superior hull to most factions. You keep changing @#(! without thinking about the full ramifications of what a change will have, and then you're forced to spend all kinds of time $#@!ing with it and trying to make it work for the next six months and then you don't get anything else done.

The only thing worse than not fixing what's broken at all is doing a @#(!ty job of it to the point where you need to continuously go back and address a problem that came up from your poor fix job.

[Adept]

QUOTE (NightRychune @ Feb 13 2011, 08:41 PM) welp

adept still doesn't get it at all

it's not about LOL AN IC INT CAN KILL A DREG INT HEAD ON JUST FINE

*Sigh*

QUOTE (Adept @ Feb 13 2011, 07:25 PM) Hittability from head in isn't everything in Allegiance of course, but it's the easiest measuring stick. Looks like both of these could do with an increase.

Try again Viru, this time without trolling and drama.

I did point out that this isn't all there is to it didn't I? Isn't it still better to have some objective stuff as basis of discussion? Even with all you said above balancing models is a matter of scale. It would be nice to see your take on the scaling, if you can be constructive about it.

As it happens, none of these ships were put in without changing the scale as you seem to suggest. The Dreg int's current length nose to tail is nearly 21 meters, as opposed to the IC int's 15. There's a lot of it to hit from angles other than head on, but this is still a better start than going purely with the subjective feel and memory of each of us.

Granted taking side and top pictures from all the ships would be better, but it's slow and tedious work. Volunteers are welcome.

[NightRychune]

QUOTE (Adept @ Feb 13 2011, 11:54 AM) As it happens, none of these ships were put in without changing the scale as you seem to suggest.

really?

QUOTE (cc11b, ICE)IC enh fig scale: 13.446

IC Adv fig scale: 13.446

[Adept]

The new ships.

Just for the record, are you saying IC sup is now overpowered?


As for that IC fig being small

[NightRychune]

i am saying fixing unbalanced issues and adding new models is one thing, but doing it in such a way that it gives unnecessary perks to things that don't need them, well

that's just stupid!

[SpaceJunk]

It will hurt accuracy (i.e. worse movement deltas and angles) and many other traits if you nerf accel to make things more hittable.

[Adept]

QUOTE (NightRychune @ Feb 13 2011, 09:19 PM) i am saying fixing unbalanced issues and adding new models is one thing, but doing it in such a way that it gives unnecessary perks to things that don't need them, well

IC sup has been pretty univerally hated. Having the ship not be a huge shoot-me-here sign should make it actually worth something. It worked with GT sup in CC_10 pretty nicely.

[Archangelus]

My 2c. Considering how you scalled IC, I think you should change Dreg and TF, or its just me that both factions have parts that "cant" be hit?