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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:42 am
by TurkeyXIII
Jeebus, fussy fussy. The ship radius refers to the length of the ship. It wouldn't be as easy to displace the spawn point upwards to the top edge of the model because there's no easy way to tell where the top of the ship is. (I'm thinking futz with the hitbox somehow or change .cvh format to include a chaff dispenser, both of which are beyond me). Moving the spawn point upwards a ship radius as MadPeople suggested would result in the CM spawning 1/2 a ship length above it which would look a little weird.
We could just leave the spawn point in the middle of the ship and increase the speed of the CM until it shoots out so fast nobody notices it inside.
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:01 am
by Broodwich
well better to look a little weird than be totally useless. What i was really looking for was as you suggested a chaff dispenser on the model that would help a lot more with other ships in general
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:43 pm
by Cortex
Isn't that going to affect the effectiveness of CMs in general, Turkey? For all the smaller ships too, that is? Guess we need to talk to the CC team about this.
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:03 pm
by Compellor
TurkeyXIII wrote:QUOTE (TurkeyXIII @ Nov 18 2009, 01:42 AM) Jeebus, fussy fussy. The ship radius refers to the length of the ship.
Actually, I think it refers to the distance from the center of the ship to the farthest vertex, which would in many cases put the chaff origin slightly behind the ship. You should probably look at the results for the TF Int before you decide to commit this.
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:15 pm
by Broodwich
Cort wrote:QUOTE (Cort @ Nov 18 2009, 11:43 AM) Isn't that going to affect the effectiveness of CMs in general, Turkey? For all the smaller ships too, that is? Guess we need to talk to the CC team about this.
I'm certain that cm longevity has nothing to do with how many missles it spoofs, it affects every missle currently locked to the target and makes them follow it instead. It will help you not get hit by a spoofed missle, but thats about it. Which actually brings up 2 seperate questions
What lock does every missle get when it is spoofed by a cm? I have seen abs take angles I have never thought possible when they are spoofed
What precisely does lock strength determine? I know that dumbfires with a lock of 0 will track exactly where their target IS, versus other missles like seekers and qfs with a lock of 1 will track where their target WILL BE. My current personal theory is that each missile in a sense gets its own lead indicator when locked, and lock strength determines what percentage of lead the missle follows. Anyone know?
But back to my original q/request, i think it would be more beneficial to give ships the option of a cm dispenser in the model, and any without one specified will use the current default spawn point.
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:25 pm
by Cortex
Broodwich wrote:QUOTE (Broodwich @ Nov 18 2009, 10:15 PM) I'm certain that cm longevity has nothing to do with how many missles it spoofs, it affects every missle currently locked to the target and makes them follow it instead. It will help you not get hit by a spoofed missle, but thats about it. Which actually brings up 2 seperate questions
Yeah, sorry, I wasn't very clear on that. My reply specifically targeted Turkey's patching approach of increasing CM dropoff speed. My idea was that if missiles are really targeting the CM *if* they are spoofed, then it makes quite a difference when a seeker is fired at my scout whether the CM moves away from me with 1mps (or whatever the unit is) or 100mps. At 1mps it will most likely still hit me, while at 100mps the seeker should make a pretty sharp turn.
For everything else, someone link to factoid's analysis please. (I really wish there was a central location for all of them...
)
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:00 am
by TurkeyXIII
At the current 5 m/s it leaves small ships pretty-much immediately, so you're unlikely to still get hit in a scout even at lower CM speeds.
@Compellor: Whoops, heh. No moving the spawn point behind it then.
@Brood: I'm pretty sure that any missile tracks a counter at 100% lock. Your theory on what lock strength determines is the same as they teach in CDT 2, and seems to be backed up by the line
Vector dV = m_target->GetVelocity() * m_lock - myVelocity;
What was Factoid's analysis? I don't think I've seen that.
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:11 am
by Broodwich
well factoid had some big long thing that was part of cdt, but at the time i didnt really understand all the variables because he pulls them straight fromt he code without explaining what the variables mean. that and cdt was sooo long ago, i really think some of that info should be publicly available if not all of it
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:23 am
by Compellor
factoid wrote:QUOTE (factoid @ Mar 12 2007, 10:42 PM) From an article I previously wrote:
Dropping chaff is a 1 time check which attempts to cause any missile targeting you at the time you drop the chaff to lock on to the chaff instead. Chaff of yours which is still floating in space will not affect newly fired missiles. Nor can your chaff spoof missiles not targeting you. The chance of breaking a missile's lock is dependent on the values of the chaff's ECM strength, and the missile's resistance. The formula is as follows:
if ecm <= resist then chance = 0.5 * ecm / resist
if ecm > resist then chance = 1.0 - (0.5 * resist / ecm)
As you can see, this means that if the chaff strength is equal to the missile's resistance, you have a 50% chance of breaking the lock.
Countermeasures are deployed at your position, and moves away from you at 5 mps in your ship's relative 'up' direction. On DN chaff has 35 hps, and a lifetime of 2 seconds. On EoR chaff also has 35 hps, and a lifetime of 2 second, but flares have a lifetime of 1.5 seconds. The radius of the chaff also grows over time towards the maximum radius of the chaff according to the following formula:
radius = max( baseRadius * (1.0 - lifetimeRemaining / maximumLifetime ), 1.0 )
Essentially the game is mimicking the behaviour of real chaff, the cloud of chaff particles grows as time elapses, towards the maximum size defined in the core, but is never smaller than a radius of 1.0. This makes it more likely that the missile will hit the chaff as time goes on. It's also possible that if you drop a chaff and laterally thrust up, even if the lock doesn't break, it might strike the chaff cloud before it hits your ship (not sure how difficult this maneuver is to perform however).
If the chaff is destroyed or times out, then the missiles that had locked onto it will simply continue to accelerate on their present course. Therefore, if the chaff times out before the missile hits, or multiple missiles were locked onto the chaff, it is still possible for the spoofed missile to hit you. Some situations may require you may need to break after dropping your cms, even if the lock is broken.
Coredump will produce a missile spoof table automatically
The one thing here that I'm not clear on is that he implies that it matters if the missile hits the chaff cloud - as far as I can tell nothing happens when a missile hits a chaff cloud, the missile just tries to turn around to go back toward the center of the chaff. This means that the size of the chaff is just for show.
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:12 am
by Broodwich
no the missle will hit the cm im fairly certain and detonate, however with such a short lifespan normally thte cm is dead before the missile reaches it, and the missile continues on its course till its lifespan ends (i think)