Ints - cut their fuel?

[BobtheHobo]

Why lower ints fuel? Lower their max top speed to like 30. Whenever I see ints kill miners they didn't just boost 2 sectors. They floated for a ways. Lowering top speed means you have to boost everywhere. Not really a nerf for defense because ints boost everywhere anyways.

Or maybe I'm completely ignorant and ints can boost two sectors to kill miners then boost 2 sectors back in which case they are really overpowered.

[Blinder]

Load up on fuel, especially if your faction has booster2 or better, with just one reload for the minis (and no spare PP). You'll be surprised how far you can get. Also, you generally do float out, thus your extra fuel is all for getting home at 300+mps... that goes a long way to nullifying the intended short-range disadvantage ints are supposed to have. Killing their top speed just makes them annoying to fly and hurts their maneuverability in their intended role, it doesn't change the fact that they can withdraw and redeploy unreasonably quickly (a lone int in an enemy sector should be toast. As it is, it gets a couple kills and then boosts out with defending figs/SFs pretty much unable to catch it if the pilot is decent). Knocking their fuel down means they're still maneuverable and you can still float 2+ sectors out if you WANT to, but the boosting is for combat, and for getting to an intercept point, not for rushing home from miner-killing in time to pop a bomb run (unless its a "next sector over" type thing in which case you can probably still make it, but you're still mostly flying home at 80-ish mps, not 300). Dogfighting in friendly sectors doesn't suffer (since you're close to reload/refuel), and pushing to a neighboring sector doesn't really suffer either (you're still pretty close and you probably won't be going home either way)... ints have pretty much the same speeds as cons (miners are faster but the ints should already be in place for defending them)... so they're still great at what they do (guard things) and become truly hampered the way they're supposed to be hampered (can't redeploy quickly if they're already a ways from home. They can still dock and relaunch elsewhere just fine, though).

[schnobs]

Why do people believe that tampering with fuel will change Ints?
Ints absolutely must have enough fuel to quickly reach a neighbouring sector, fight a little, and get back fast. If that amount proves to be sufficient for all sorts of other crap, well too bad: reducing it even more would render Ints useless even at their alleged main task. Their basic speed, too, already is rather low as it is; in order for the change to have an serious effect, they would need to be slower than escape pods. Thanks, but no thanks.

But here's a few other ideas:

a) less versatility
Others may be better at one task or another, or even several, but they always have to tailor their loadout for the purpose; Int's effectively have only one gun, but it's a decent "one size fits all" kind of device that will never be out of place. There's valid reasons why Ints need anti-util capacity, but what about moving it to another gun? So Ints, too, would have to consider which loadout to take?

Also from an economic point of view: Tac and Sup come with all sorts of shields and missiles and whatnot. You don't need them all, of course, but some of them are necessary and others certainly would be nice. When going Exp, you simply buy Mini2 and that's that.

b) higher sig
Ints have an insanely low signature. Actually, when you compare the ships in combat-ready state (shield and missile loaded), Ints have the lowest sig of them all. While not exactly stealth-class, it's enough to allow them to walk to a mining sector without tipping off any EWS. They may even loiter around in the actual enemy mining sector while waiting for reinforcements.

As a result, Ints actually can reach farther than figs. Two or three sectors away is not a problem. It may take a while to get there, yes -- but they have a reasonable chance to get there unnoticed, while figs trying to project their strength that far are sure to find a welcome comittee by the time they arrive. Ints may still have their cover blown by a chance encounter, but they're fully operational at all times and may at least cross someone else's plans.

The stated reason for Ints' low sig is that they should be able to escort an HTT. But is that really necessary? There's other tactics: "diversion" and "shoving it down their throat", for example. In my experience, both are a lot more popular than "long range sneaky escort". I think Ints of 200% sig could still perform all the tasks that are part of an Ints' official job description.

[Kltplzyxm]

Question: Leave everything alone... fuel, sig, damage, etc. However, if there was a code to change to prevent an int to pass through an aleph into the next sector, is that too extreme of a change? Or perhaps, int's can only use an aleph if the sector already contains a friendly con or base? Just food for thought.

EDIT: I just realized there's a problem with that... if you get left behind after a techbase blows up in a stranded sector, you're screwed.

[Blinder]

Ints need to get to an aleph quickly from a base, or get to an enemy quickly from a miner/con. They don't need any boost to get to another sector, just to fight there if it is part of a push. They have WAY more fuel than they need for that, as the boosting is only required one-way and for maneuvering (and they have better accel than a fig so they don't need as much boosting for the same vector change).

Ints need a low sig to stand a chance at not getting picked off by an SF while they're guarding miners/cons. HTT runs are either unescorted sneaky dicey affairs or very very loud already (because they have ints instead of turrets but otherwise it is a bomb run), increasing sig doesn't do squat. Plus, seeing an int in transit to your sector isn't all that hard currently either unless you're REALLY remiss on your probing, so upping it doesn't hurt them except in what they *should* be doing.

The reason everyone wants a fuel hit is because that's the most specific non-code change (cutting util damage from minis helps with the miner-hunting-ints but they shouldn't be able to get that far out and not face a LONG trip back, so they can still screw with things just fine in sectors that should be insane for them to head to) that would hamper int range without hampering their ability to intercept things (just imagine trying to defend a miner in a 200% sig int. You'd be hunter-food).

[asheron2k]

Just came up with another, code based, solution... limit how many fuels they can pack into cargo

It limits fuel for long range missions(where you would normally jam as many fuels in as you can)
But doesn't effect short range missions(where you'd be packing extra ammo/probes)

[minigun]

are we just talking hvy int's here?
IC starts off with lt ints, only way to D opening con.
you can follow con by not boosting, but if your a
little late and they shorten fuel, i would hate to
try and save a con with no fuel once you get to it.

[schnobs]

QUOTE (Blinder @ Aug 11 2007, 03:35 AM) Ints need to get to an aleph quickly from a base, or get to an enemy quickly from a miner/con. They don't need any boost to get to another sector, just to fight there if it is part of a push.

Lauch, boost there, defend something, boost back, F8 to another base, launch... seems to be a common scenario when on D.

Current fuel supply is more than enough for this, so one could arguably reduce it a little. However, I'm afraid that a small reduction won't change a thing, and a sufficient reduction for the desired effects would also impede Ints at what they're meant to be good at.

QUOTE (Blinder @ Aug 11 2007, 03:35 AM) Ints need a low sig to stand a chance at not getting picked off by an SF while they're guarding miners/cons.
[...]
(just imagine trying to defend a miner in a 200% sig int. You'd be hunter-food).

Could you please explain why Ints need this while figs and even scouts apparently don't?

QUOTE (Blinder @ Aug 11 2007, 03:35 AM) (just imagine trying to defend a miner in a 200% sig int. You'd be hunter-food).

Yet we expect figs to somehow cope with it, and they don't even have PPs at their disposal.

QUOTE (Blinder @ Aug 11 2007, 03:35 AM) Plus, seeing an int in transit to your sector isn't all that hard currently either unless you're REALLY remiss on your probing,

Seeing a boostig Int is easy. A walking Int almost has to stumble upon an EWS. Ints don't even need to make a detour: probes are usually placed a bit away from the direct route between alephs (or they would be detected and destroyed immediately). A probe that's safe from detection by a casual scout (who's just moving from A to will not pick up a walking Int that's taking the same path.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that what makes Ints so uber isn't range or even their combat power, but the ability to ambush and surprise attack.

[Blinder]

QUOTE (schnobs @ Aug 11 2007, 05:57 AM) Lauch, boost there, defend something, boost back, F8 to another base, launch... seems to be a common scenario when on D.

Current fuel supply is more than enough for this, so one could arguably reduce it a little. However, I'm afraid that a small reduction won't change a thing, and a sufficient reduction for the desired effects would also impede Ints at what they're meant to be good at.
Could you please explain why Ints need this while figs and even scouts apparently don't?
Yet we expect figs to somehow cope with it, and they don't even have PPs at their disposal.
Seeing a boostig Int is easy. A walking Int almost has to stumble upon an EWS. Ints don't even need to make a detour: probes are usually placed a bit away from the direct route between alephs (or they would be detected and destroyed immediately). A probe that's safe from detection by a casual scout (who's just moving from A to will not pick up a walking Int that's taking the same path.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that what makes Ints so uber isn't range or even their combat power, but the ability to ambush and surprise attack.

If you expect a fig to defend against SFs without massive support, you're off your rocker. Tac is the ultimate Sup-stopper BECAUSE its so much easier to kill their miner D than EXP miner D. Scouts have their own tools and aren't there to act as bodyguards, they're there as support (probing, emergency repairs) or for hunting (scan range, counter payload). PPs are just an "easy button" that was thrown at EXP to help them keep SBs in line, so figs "not even" having them at their disposal doesn't mean much. Besides, you can get more figs on hand quick, ints are on their own.

Launch/boost/land is something that a fuel hit (and not a small one either) would also cut back on... but, that isn't exactly bad as it again emphasizes exp's need to be careful with where they pile their team. Even a cut large enough to keep them in friendly sectors would still provide enough ability to re-dock reasonably unless your team got out-done and too many of your pilots sat on a distant aleph and couldn't go greet bomber #2.

Int sigs are in the 60-80 range. While not so visible as a 150's sig fighter that's more than enough to be seen by any decent EWS array. If you can't see 'em floating to you at least intermittently, *that* is a probe issue. The sig should only help defensively.

As for boosting out if you're late catching up to a con, swap in an extra fuel pack, or get a scout. Of all the things ints need to do their job, large fuel reserves is *not* one of them. They really don't need much more than a fighter, just the extra bit to burn a few K out from a base to pop bombers.

[Sycrus]

If you cut Int's fuel, it will no longer be an offensive tech path, that would defeat the point of boosting across the sector just to dogfight. You don't send a (0) with an int into the middle of an enemy secotr an expect results, thats why you have figs, to lob df's to get a hang of dogfighting and work up to an int. Comms get exp if they know that they can make process.

When you have a 3 bbrs at your op, don't expect everyone to boost from other sectors with cut fuel to help defend, because I can ensure you that not everyone is in base. Even then your op is hosed....

There's nothing worse than having an int on int dogfight when you're not boosting.