The definitive HTT poll
Yes, but acceleration covers BOTH "speeding up after a ram kills your speed" AND "slowing down after a push causes you to exceed your top speed". Perking accel to help the HTT get back on track after a ram will necessarily affect ALL rams, including pushes. That's what Viru and SpaceJunk are on about. Therefore, an accel increase will actually slow down a pushed HTT by causing it to lose the effects of a push faster.
And that would force people to keep fwd thrust pressed while being pushed. I don't see a problem with it.Jimen wrote:QUOTE (Jimen @ Mar 20 2010, 08:54 AM) Yes, but acceleration covers BOTH "speeding up after a ram kills your speed" AND "slowing down after a push causes you to exceed your top speed". Perking accel to help the HTT get back on track after a ram will necessarily affect ALL rams, including pushes. That's what Viru and SpaceJunk are on about. Therefore, an accel increase will actually slow down a pushed HTT by causing it to lose the effects of a push faster.
ACS grad since 2nd Feb. 2010Perking speed is good for more than just making your final run... it makes sneaking around while you're not being rammed a lot less of a hassle.DasSmiter wrote:QUOTE (DasSmiter @ Mar 20 2010, 07:29 AM) Perking HTT Top Speed: This would hopefully reduce the amount of time between when the HTT is eyed and when it hits the green door (once again dealing with getting rammed). Given that you normally have a scout ramming you this perk isn't as good as the others, but some people have mentioned it.
AFAIK (I could be wrong) if you keep the thrust forward key pressed down, you will only decelerate after being rammed due to drag, not your engines.Jimen wrote:QUOTE (Jimen @ Mar 20 2010, 11:54 AM) Yes, but acceleration covers BOTH "speeding up after a ram kills your speed" AND "slowing down after a push causes you to exceed your top speed". Perking accel to help the HTT get back on track after a ram will necessarily affect ALL rams, including pushes. That's what Viru and SpaceJunk are on about. Therefore, an accel increase will actually slow down a pushed HTT by causing it to lose the effects of a push faster.
Last but not least, I hate to be a pain but calling this "The definitive HTT poll" is a bit far fetched.
It's missing several key options:
Don't perk HTTs.I don't know what is best, just don't make any sudden massive changes.Make small experimental changes and lets see what happens.
I'm for #3, specifically a small (5-10%) speed perk.
Perking mass might be nice but doubling it seems a bit too much. I'd say add 25% and test the effects.
FYI you can increase your HTT's mass right now by taking a few extra racks of missiles. Your acceleration suffers tho.
It doesn't matter matter how stealthy or fast your htt or how much of your team you dedicate to its defense when two figs can dumbfire spike it.
make heavy troop transports have a lot of health and a lot of mass so that it's not easily killed and not easily rammed.
make TTs significantly weaker, slower (than an htt with my suggested changes) and take a lot longer to take down shields (one missle per rack)
(or give them emp cannon, assuming emp cannon can take down shield of light bases, I can't even remember anymore)
I won't promote my previous idea of making TTs a stealth craft because I don't believe that belongs in expansion, don't think tac should have it either, and it leaves bios's faction specific-ness untainted
make htts slow, massive, high sig, not practical for long-distance missions without a LOT of support, but EXTREMELY effective over short distances (an op pushed into an enemy sector) like expansion should be.
I don't think htts needed "buffed" exactly, more than they need changed. as it stands now they are a combination of both a stealth craft and a brute-force craft, but not enough of either to be as good as it should be. leave the stealth @#(! to tac, make htts slow as hell but hard to kill/ram.
and in the interest of making minor changes before extreme ones,
buff htt hp > hp +mass
**i've edited this post like 5 times
make heavy troop transports have a lot of health and a lot of mass so that it's not easily killed and not easily rammed.
make TTs significantly weaker, slower (than an htt with my suggested changes) and take a lot longer to take down shields (one missle per rack)
(or give them emp cannon, assuming emp cannon can take down shield of light bases, I can't even remember anymore)
I won't promote my previous idea of making TTs a stealth craft because I don't believe that belongs in expansion, don't think tac should have it either, and it leaves bios's faction specific-ness untainted
make htts slow, massive, high sig, not practical for long-distance missions without a LOT of support, but EXTREMELY effective over short distances (an op pushed into an enemy sector) like expansion should be.
I don't think htts needed "buffed" exactly, more than they need changed. as it stands now they are a combination of both a stealth craft and a brute-force craft, but not enough of either to be as good as it should be. leave the stealth @#(! to tac, make htts slow as hell but hard to kill/ram.
and in the interest of making minor changes before extreme ones,
buff htt hp > hp +mass
**i've edited this post like 5 times
Last edited by Mastametz on Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There's a new sheriff in town.
Yes, you're a painSpinoza wrote:QUOTE (Spinoza @ Mar 20 2010, 11:22 AM) Last but not least, I hate to be a pain but calling this "The definitive HTT poll" is a bit far fetched.
It's missing several key options:
Don't perk HTTs.I don't know what is best, just don't make any sudden massive changes.Make small experimental changes and lets see what happens.
I'm for #3, specifically a small (5-10%) speed perk.
because you seem to have not read the previous thousand-page thread. We all agree that HTTs need a perk (instead of nerfing the rest, as it has been said). The other 2 options are in the poll. ACS grad since 2nd Feb. 2010-
TurkeyXIII
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This is true, but increasing the thrust stat on the hull increases its drag proportionally. Holding fwd thrust down really won't help much more than it does now.Spinoza wrote:QUOTE (Spinoza @ Mar 20 2010, 09:22 PM) AFAIK (I could be wrong) if you keep the thrust forward key pressed down, you will only decelerate after being rammed due to drag, not your engines.
QUOTE (Randall Munroe)14.2: Turkey consumption rate of the average American in milligrams per minute[/quote]
Preamble
To determine the effectiveness of using fwd thrust to sustain HTT speed above given threshold.
@#(! used
Faction-Gigacorp (I just went with whatever I had when I joined a team to start the game)
HTT with 1 rack of missiles loaded, 1 rack in cargo, MS Loaded, CM Loaded
Accel GA 2
Given Acceleration = 11 (I have no idea what unit this number is in)
Given top speed = 83 m/s
Given Mass = 45 (Again, no clue what unit this is in)
Faction Specifics for this test
Ship Speed = 1.1
Ship Accel = 0.9
Ship Hull = 0.85
Nitty Gritty
Test 1.
Finding the actual real acceleration of a Heavy Troop Transport. Done by doing nothing special, just using a timer and taking screencaps. Started 6000m from an aleph and recorded the following:
Time = 60 seconds
Initial Velocity = 0m/s
Final Velocity = 83m/s
Distance travelled = approx. 4368m
Constant acceleration = 1.383333m/s^2 repeating
Observations
It took precisely 60 seconds to accelerate from 0 m/s to 83 m/s. Test was repeated 5 times, virtually identical results.
Test 2.
Finding the negative acceleration of a Heavy Troop Transport leaving an aleph. No Fwd Thrust binding being held down. Entered at 83 m/s
Time = 21 seconds
Initial velocity 97m/s
Final Velocity 83m/s
Distance travelled = approx 1892m
Negative constant accel = 0.6666667 m/s^2
Observations
Negative acceleration is approx. half of its acceleration
Test 3.
Finding the acceleration of a HTT moving forward using the Fwd Thrust keybinding alone.
Identical results to test 1.
Observations
Fwd thrust functions exactly as one would expect (100% thrust forward). Common sense could have been reason to omit this test but I wanted to cover all bases for those without it.
Test 4.
Finding the negative acceleration of a HTT leaving an aleph. Using the Fwd Thrust keybinding alone. Entered at 83m/s.
Identical results to test 2.
Observations
See Observations for test 3.
Test 5.
Finding the acceleration of a HTT using both 100% thrust AND the Fwd Thrust keybinding.
Identical results as Tests 1 and 3.
Observations
No extra acceleration here.
Test 6.
Finding the negative acceleration of a HTT Leaving the aleph at a speed above its threshold using both 100% thrust AND the Fwd thrust keybinding.
Surprising result is that it was identical to tests 2 and 4.
Observation
One of the largest Allegiance myths, busted.
Conclusion
So something is to be learned here from common sense. Holding down a binding that does the exact same thing as setting your throttle to 100% does not magically reduce your acceleration so you preserve your higher-than-allowed speed any longer. In fact, the only properties that holding down FWD thrust will give you is increased forward momentum when you strafe in a direction that is not forward to avoid something.
I felt it was necessary to include this if people were going to cling to the "you must hold down fwd thrust to go faster when rammed!" argument, since it is fallacious logic. You are already provided with 100% fwd thrust by setting your throttle to 100%. The only instances where you lose 100% fwd thrust is when you activate a thruster that does not accelerate you forward, in which case, pressing forward thrust would allow you to not hemorrhage forward speed at an alarming rate while giving you some lee-way to move left or right. The allegiance engine does not give you automatic quasi movement, that is something that must be done manually.
To determine the effectiveness of using fwd thrust to sustain HTT speed above given threshold.
@#(! used
Faction-Gigacorp (I just went with whatever I had when I joined a team to start the game)
HTT with 1 rack of missiles loaded, 1 rack in cargo, MS Loaded, CM Loaded
Accel GA 2
Given Acceleration = 11 (I have no idea what unit this number is in)
Given top speed = 83 m/s
Given Mass = 45 (Again, no clue what unit this is in)
Faction Specifics for this test
Ship Speed = 1.1
Ship Accel = 0.9
Ship Hull = 0.85
Nitty Gritty
Test 1.
Finding the actual real acceleration of a Heavy Troop Transport. Done by doing nothing special, just using a timer and taking screencaps. Started 6000m from an aleph and recorded the following:
Time = 60 seconds
Initial Velocity = 0m/s
Final Velocity = 83m/s
Distance travelled = approx. 4368m
Constant acceleration = 1.383333m/s^2 repeating
Observations
It took precisely 60 seconds to accelerate from 0 m/s to 83 m/s. Test was repeated 5 times, virtually identical results.
Test 2.
Finding the negative acceleration of a Heavy Troop Transport leaving an aleph. No Fwd Thrust binding being held down. Entered at 83 m/s
Time = 21 seconds
Initial velocity 97m/s
Final Velocity 83m/s
Distance travelled = approx 1892m
Negative constant accel = 0.6666667 m/s^2
Observations
Negative acceleration is approx. half of its acceleration
Test 3.
Finding the acceleration of a HTT moving forward using the Fwd Thrust keybinding alone.
Identical results to test 1.
Observations
Fwd thrust functions exactly as one would expect (100% thrust forward). Common sense could have been reason to omit this test but I wanted to cover all bases for those without it.
Test 4.
Finding the negative acceleration of a HTT leaving an aleph. Using the Fwd Thrust keybinding alone. Entered at 83m/s.
Identical results to test 2.
Observations
See Observations for test 3.
Test 5.
Finding the acceleration of a HTT using both 100% thrust AND the Fwd Thrust keybinding.
Identical results as Tests 1 and 3.
Observations
No extra acceleration here.
Test 6.
Finding the negative acceleration of a HTT Leaving the aleph at a speed above its threshold using both 100% thrust AND the Fwd thrust keybinding.
Surprising result is that it was identical to tests 2 and 4.
Observation
One of the largest Allegiance myths, busted.
Conclusion
So something is to be learned here from common sense. Holding down a binding that does the exact same thing as setting your throttle to 100% does not magically reduce your acceleration so you preserve your higher-than-allowed speed any longer. In fact, the only properties that holding down FWD thrust will give you is increased forward momentum when you strafe in a direction that is not forward to avoid something.
I felt it was necessary to include this if people were going to cling to the "you must hold down fwd thrust to go faster when rammed!" argument, since it is fallacious logic. You are already provided with 100% fwd thrust by setting your throttle to 100%. The only instances where you lose 100% fwd thrust is when you activate a thruster that does not accelerate you forward, in which case, pressing forward thrust would allow you to not hemorrhage forward speed at an alarming rate while giving you some lee-way to move left or right. The allegiance engine does not give you automatic quasi movement, that is something that must be done manually.
cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Oct 16 2010, 02:48 AM) Interceptors are fun because without one, Drizzo would be physically incapable of entering a sector.
Ah apologies to vir and space. Increasing to thrust value to maintain it's current ratio with the mass value would have no affect on either accel or decel except to maintain the current level of accel or decel (so the new HTT would not decel any faster or slower than the current HTT after being rammed)Jimen wrote:QUOTE (Jimen @ Mar 20 2010, 02:54 AM) Yes, but acceleration covers BOTH "speeding up after a ram kills your speed" AND "slowing down after a push causes you to exceed your top speed". Perking accel to help the HTT get back on track after a ram will necessarily affect ALL rams, including pushes. That's what Viru and SpaceJunk are on about. Therefore, an accel increase will actually slow down a pushed HTT by causing it to lose the effects of a push faster.
Increasing the Accel value alone will let the HTT be more nimble, but won't help it's immunity to rams (just ability to recover)
Get over yourselves, don't try to win arguments on the internet where the option of a punch in the mouth is unavailable
"It is not that I cannot create anything good, but that I will not." And to prove this, he created the peacock.
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TurkeyXIII
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I thought this was common knowledge?Drizzo wrote:QUOTE (Drizzo @ Mar 21 2010, 02:16 AM) So something is to be learned here from common sense. Holding down a binding that does the exact same thing as setting your throttle to 100% does not magically reduce your acceleration so you preserve your higher-than-allowed speed any longer. In fact, the only properties that holding down FWD thrust will give you is increased forward momentum when you strafe in a direction that is not forward to avoid something.
Often rams are off-centre and you end up going partially sideways. Holding fwd-thrust allows you to keep that sideways velocity, thus you are moving faster and are (slightly) harder to hit. The velocity component in the direction of your heading is identical to 100% throttle. You guys seriously didn't know that?
QUOTE (Randall Munroe)14.2: Turkey consumption rate of the average American in milligrams per minute[/quote]