Donald Trump

Vortrog · Post by **Vortrog** » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:36 pm

cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ May 1 2019, 06:52 AM) Saudi Arabia is purely an ally of convenience. They are the best friend money can apparently buy in that region -- or at least, the regime we have invested the most in buying off. But objectively we have no business supporting that regime or selling it weapons and nuclear technology.

I think it is the US who is the best ally money can buy from the Saudi perspective. But, the Saudi's have a backup whore in Russia who know their conventional weapons are cheaper and have a more compliant and poor populace to do Saudi's dirtywork (militarily) if needed.

Looking away from the current focus of world attention in direct Oil control, the US seem to be completely ignoring the actions of China in the south china sea and Eastern Nations and going for the short term gain with their relationship with the Saudi's. Look up China's Silk Road. China are going for lategame. The situation the US finds itself in in the TV Series Dark Angel is almost looking prophetic. There is only so much military power ALONE can do.

Terran · Post by **Terran** » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:14 pm

cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Apr 30 2019, 04:52 PM) Neither Iran nor Saudi Arabia are savory regimes but it would be far better to be aligned with Iran than Saudi Arabia. At least Iran has an elected president and some democratic institutions whereas Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy. At the very least we should treat the two countries with equal suspicion.

Saudi Arabia is purely an ally of convenience. They are the best friend money can apparently buy in that region -- or at least, the regime we have invested the most in buying off. But objectively we have no business supporting that regime or selling it weapons and nuclear technology.

I suspect it has something to do with the Saudi regime cooperating in the oil production industry, whereas Iran just wants all Americans dead. I dunno, could just be me.

P1, Switzerland's neutrality has seen them through some of Europe's worst wars - at the expense of other nations which actually fought to uphold the system which allowed Switzerland to prosper. I suspect they would have slid into poverty along with the rest of Europe if it had become a bastion of Fascist ideology and state-controlled economy. There is a significant political movement in that country that sees its history of neutrality during the world wars as morally-bankrupt.

The US advantage is its dominant, competitive economy in a majority of industries (your points are all factors leading to this). Something it would lose very quickly if every major nation closed off its market to foreign competition the way China is kind-of doing right now (which, by the way, your country is attempting to pry-open using its .... you guessed it... economic advantages).

SumVeritas · Post by **SumVeritas** » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:25 pm

Terran wrote:QUOTE (Terran @ Apr 30 2019, 06:14 PM) I suspect it has something to do with the Saudi regime cooperating in the oil production industry, whereas Iran just wants all Americans dead. I dunno, could just be me.

Words speak louder than actions i guess

Terran · Post by **Terran** » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:28 pm

Oh absolutely.

Post by **zombywoof** » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:56 pm

Terran wrote:QUOTE (Terran @ Apr 30 2019, 03:14 PM) I suspect it has something to do with the Saudi regime cooperating in the oil production industry, whereas Iran just wants all Americans dead. I dunno, could just be me.

I think it's mainly because the dictatorship we propped up with oil $$$$ collapsed in Iran but not Saudi Arabia. I think most of the people of both nations have similar feelings towards Americans which aren't entirely unjustified.

QUOTE P1, Switzerland's neutrality has seen them through some of Europe's worst wars - at the expense of other nations which actually fought to uphold the system which allowed Switzerland to prosper. I suspect they would have slid into poverty along with the rest of Europe if it had become a bastion of Fascist ideology and state-controlled economy. There is a significant political movement in that country that sees its history of neutrality during the world wars as morally-bankrupt.[/quote]
Perhaps. Still seems to have worked out for Switzerland, at least.

QUOTE The US advantage is its dominant, competitive economy in a majority of industries (your points are all factors leading to this). Something it would lose very quickly if every major nation closed off its market to foreign competition the way China is kind-of doing right now[/quote]
Whereas an endless cycle of invasion and human rights abuses makes it, in your mind, more likely that markets remain open to US goods?

QUOTE (which, by the way, your country is attempting to pry-open using its .... you guessed it... economic advantages).[/quote]
And the attempts are so wildly successful that... wait. Not that thing the other thing.

cashto · Post by **cashto** » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:59 pm

phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Apr 30 2019, 03:56 PM) I think it's mainly because the dictatorship we propped up with oil $$$$ collapsed in Iran but not Saudi Arabia. I think most of the people of both nations have similar feelings towards Americans which aren't entirely unjustified.

This.

peet · Post by **peet** » Wed May 01, 2019 9:37 am

Muller does not agree with the summary...

Grimmwolf_GB · Post by **Grimmwolf_GB** » Wed May 01, 2019 11:12 am

To be honest the love of the US with overthrowing governments are source of many issues.
This is especially true in the case of Iran which used to have a democratic leader. That wasn't to the liking of UK and then US. The non-democratic Shah was installed as someone keeping the oil under UK/US influence. The Ayatollah managed to get the islamic revolution rolling. However, this wasn't a done deal until Iraq started a US-supported war against Iran. Due to that unifying influence on the people the resistance against the islamic regime came to a halt in Iran. The Iran-Iraq war is still a major topic in Iran and a source of pride and unification. It is also a large source of hatred against the US (and not Iraq!).
I got to see that in the large museum concerning the war in Teheran. It is really surprising how much effort they put into explaining that they do not blame their neighbours but the US.

The people themselves are very fond of the US and many make it a point to learn english. Quite a few approached us on the street just to get to use their hard learned english (with a german...). I would expect a more open approach to Iran to actually weaken the regime. The current approach allows the regime to hide their issues (waste of water, lack of jobs, opportunity, ...) behind the foreign aggression.

minigun · Post by **minigun** » Wed May 01, 2019 12:22 pm

Grimmwolf_GB wrote:QUOTE (Grimmwolf_GB @ May 1 2019, 09:12 PM) To be honest the love of the US with overthrowing governments are source of many issues.
This is especially true in the case of Iran which used to have a democratic leader. That wasn't to the liking of UK and then US. The non-democratic Shah was installed as someone keeping the oil under UK/US influence. The Ayatollah managed to get the islamic revolution rolling. However, this wasn't a done deal until Iraq started a US-supported war against Iran. Due to that unifying influence on the people the resistance against the islamic regime came to a halt in Iran. The Iran-Iraq war is still a major topic in Iran and a source of pride and unification. It is also a large source of hatred against the US (and not Iraq!).
I got to see that in the large museum concerning the war in Teheran. It is really surprising how much effort they put into explaining that they do not blame their neighbours but the US.

The people themselves are very fond of the US and many make it a point to learn english. Quite a few approached us on the street just to get to use their hard learned english (with a german...). I would expect a more open approach to Iran to actually weaken the regime. The current approach allows the regime to hide their issues (waste of water, lack of jobs, opportunity, ...) behind the foreign aggression.

It would seem like the right thing to do. Say we do an open approach to Iran and north korea everyone for that matter. I'm not so sure all the regime's would fall. If they didn't would you take the chance iran would not build nukes, or north korea wouldn't build any inter-continental ballistic missiles. Would the Shiites find peace with the sunni's? Would n. Korea stop with its efforts to reunify korea with Kim in charge? Would Israel not attack iran if they got close to building a nuke? I mean america is on the other side of the world but still...do we let China take over all the sea trading choke points? Do we let Russia annex their way to more resources?

Post by **zombywoof** » Wed May 01, 2019 4:27 pm

I'm not afraid of a nuclear-armed Iran.

Also, with the current deal that some @#$%@# pulled the US out of (but the deal remains in place because it turns out the US isn't the only country on earth) I suspect it will take long enough for Iran to develop nuclear weapons that they simply won't.

I've met an Iranian (and people who are Iranian descended but they don't really count here cuz they grew up here) and lmao he was just another college kid spending his parents money on vodka. I suspect the people of Iran understand how not-different the people of another country are, and are specifically objecting to the types of leadership the US has had which call them an "axis of evil" as if somehow their bodycount is even remotely close to what ours is.