I was flying for you that game (although severely drunk); If any besides weed (I believe weed joined late?) and babel had a clue we'd have lost all miners and been htted to oblivion. Instead, iirc, they went with a nanless (or was it 1 late nan?) tac push and generally done nothing to seriously hurt us. So... that was not a display of your awesome command skills but rather their incompetencespideycw wrote:QUOTE (spideycw @ Oct 29 2014, 01:53 PM) After squad games I commanded a game against someone (I forget who, sorry!) where it was Omicron vs my Giga. They had Heavy Ints up right about when we got Enh Fighters up. We still won - due to a textbook giga econ (though we did lost my second full miner), hilariously awesome scout miner offense, and 250k made from spec refs
Buffalo Bills vs New York Jets
Sounds like that will be the last time you fly for me as you are clearly too stupid to take part in the joygasm that is flying for me. My clear and concise leadership on comms, targeting and destruction and spec reffing of key tech rocks, baller econ, thoughtful caltrop and tower placement, decadent con pushes was all awesome.Djole88 wrote:QUOTE (Djole88 @ Oct 29 2014, 09:49 AM) I was flying for you that game (although severely drunk); If any besides weed (I believe weed joined late?) and babel had a clue we'd have lost all miners and been htted to oblivion. Instead, iirc, they went with a nanless (or was it 1 late nan?) tac push and generally done nothing to seriously hurt us. So... that was not a display of your awesome command skills but rather their incompetence
Im sure you are a credit to whatever @#(!ty squad you are in and lead them to victory often.
I'm sorry I don't remember any of it. For you the day spideycw graced your squad with utter destruction was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Sunday
Idanmel wrote:QUOTE (Idanmel @ Mar 19 2012, 05:54 AM) I am ashamed for all the drama I caused, I have much to learn on how to behave when things don't go my way.
My apologies.
I'm not sure "concise" would be a word I'd use to describe your whinging leadership, but otherwise I tend to agree 
Last edited by zombywoof on Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
with either faction, going sup, getting as much map as possible while messing with enemy miners with a carrier and plating tps everywhere for easy defense and more map claiming for later regular bombing vs a hopefully techless faction... sounds like a plan! . typical first thought strategy but also efficient.
Well on the surface they have the same strategy but they play out very differently.
Belters spams bases and carriers to stay on constant offense and keeping up the pressure because they can't compete with most faction's end games. The signature on their SBs and scouts is slightly higher because they can't mount shields (and when those ships are flying stealth, they wouldn't mount shields). It makes it harder (and made it harder) to sneak SBs and TP2 probes around the map. Plus Belters ships have higher masses which makes it harder, again, for their figbees to be effective and hinders their late-game combat potential. Belters has to win the game through tech superiority and/or a lethal bombing attack. Hvy ints from any faction will make mincemeat of Belters ships... partly because of their hitbox and partly because of the Belters mass making it harder to run away, etc.
Giga spams bases and carriers and keeps up the pressure with a constant offense so they can buy time. Giga commanders are trading money for time and trying to trap their opponents into blowing up things that don't matter. This is because their hull nerf and accel nerf give them a horrendously weak mid-game (it also doesn't help that their bases are blown up by just about anything). Unlike Belters; however, it's largely immaterial whether or not their opponents get adv tech because lxy figs aren't just the best fighter in the game, they're in contention for most powerful combat ship in the game. In the hands of a master, a gat3 qf3 hvy boost ss3 lxy fig can take on anything. There's only one faction that can really compete with Giga's late game power, which is...
Bios, whose late game is predicated on the fact that they don't need to mine (a similarity they share with Giga who can supplement with spec mines). Late game, Bios is the opposite of Belters in the sense that they have sig and sensor perks which is huge because most end-game shenanigans are based on doing things uneyed. In an hour long game between Bios and Giga, Bios has the edge. On the other hand, unlike Giga (and like, say, IC) Bios doesn't spam their bases. Bios' offense is predicated on their ripping pods.
IC (to continue the pattern) has long-rage offense off the back of Rescue Probes and, outside of Giga's lxy figs and lxy sfs (which cost $500 a pop), has clearly the strongest combat ships out of any of the original 4 factions. IC's "brute force" methodology is best suited towards very fast hvy ints and bbrs/htts so they can exploit, like Belters, a tech advantage (and power advantage). Unlike Belters; however, if an IC opponent keeps pace with them, IC can still just overwhelm their opponents with their slight hull perk and strong weapons, be they missiles or guns. IC, like Bios, also has the ability to recover quickly from offensive failure due to rescue probes.
The more I look at the original factions (and then Rix and GT) the more I gain respect for the people who designed them. Beyond the playing with GA numbers, you can clearly see that the faction's individual "unique" factors aren't really unique at all, and are shared across different factions with subtle differences that drastically change the way those factions play.
It reminds me a lot more of Starcraft than, say, Age of Empires. In Starcraft, each faction has generally the same rules and generally the same tech tree, but the subtle variations create massively different playstyles. Example: Zerg has Creep and Protoss has Energy. Those are only subtly different in terms of design but the way they play is totally different because of those subtle design changes.
Belters spams bases and carriers to stay on constant offense and keeping up the pressure because they can't compete with most faction's end games. The signature on their SBs and scouts is slightly higher because they can't mount shields (and when those ships are flying stealth, they wouldn't mount shields). It makes it harder (and made it harder) to sneak SBs and TP2 probes around the map. Plus Belters ships have higher masses which makes it harder, again, for their figbees to be effective and hinders their late-game combat potential. Belters has to win the game through tech superiority and/or a lethal bombing attack. Hvy ints from any faction will make mincemeat of Belters ships... partly because of their hitbox and partly because of the Belters mass making it harder to run away, etc.
Giga spams bases and carriers and keeps up the pressure with a constant offense so they can buy time. Giga commanders are trading money for time and trying to trap their opponents into blowing up things that don't matter. This is because their hull nerf and accel nerf give them a horrendously weak mid-game (it also doesn't help that their bases are blown up by just about anything). Unlike Belters; however, it's largely immaterial whether or not their opponents get adv tech because lxy figs aren't just the best fighter in the game, they're in contention for most powerful combat ship in the game. In the hands of a master, a gat3 qf3 hvy boost ss3 lxy fig can take on anything. There's only one faction that can really compete with Giga's late game power, which is...
Bios, whose late game is predicated on the fact that they don't need to mine (a similarity they share with Giga who can supplement with spec mines). Late game, Bios is the opposite of Belters in the sense that they have sig and sensor perks which is huge because most end-game shenanigans are based on doing things uneyed. In an hour long game between Bios and Giga, Bios has the edge. On the other hand, unlike Giga (and like, say, IC) Bios doesn't spam their bases. Bios' offense is predicated on their ripping pods.
IC (to continue the pattern) has long-rage offense off the back of Rescue Probes and, outside of Giga's lxy figs and lxy sfs (which cost $500 a pop), has clearly the strongest combat ships out of any of the original 4 factions. IC's "brute force" methodology is best suited towards very fast hvy ints and bbrs/htts so they can exploit, like Belters, a tech advantage (and power advantage). Unlike Belters; however, if an IC opponent keeps pace with them, IC can still just overwhelm their opponents with their slight hull perk and strong weapons, be they missiles or guns. IC, like Bios, also has the ability to recover quickly from offensive failure due to rescue probes.
The more I look at the original factions (and then Rix and GT) the more I gain respect for the people who designed them. Beyond the playing with GA numbers, you can clearly see that the faction's individual "unique" factors aren't really unique at all, and are shared across different factions with subtle differences that drastically change the way those factions play.
It reminds me a lot more of Starcraft than, say, Age of Empires. In Starcraft, each faction has generally the same rules and generally the same tech tree, but the subtle variations create massively different playstyles. Example: Zerg has Creep and Protoss has Energy. Those are only subtly different in terms of design but the way they play is totally different because of those subtle design changes.
Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
-
Archangelus
- Posts: 2376
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:36 pm
- Location: Paradise City
Rix, which would be the 5th faction, aren't counted in this discussionArchangelus wrote:QUOTE (Archangelus @ Oct 29 2014, 04:36 PM) Blaspheemmyy burrnn the infidel!! Rix have the best hints!!!!
Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
amazing insight on the factions p1 if you ask me, i hope more than one pays attention to all those details, its pretty much an insigt of something we all "know", but we dont really always "KNOW",we always need someone to reminds us of key differences and super important details. i feel a commander should pick a faction that suits his playstyle. as far as i can see it, all factions are balanced and have their strong and weak points, coms should always focus on playing to their strenghts and exploit them with the faction that best suits their playstyle, and not just try to beat a faction with the one faction that supposedly defeats it..i will always and strongly support the choice of faction according to the commanders playstyle and not just because its supposed to easly defeat the other faction..
They're not really balanced though. I'm just pointing out that their playstyles are different despite the sharing of certain aspects. As an example, Giga is much better than Bios as a faction precisely because Giga is limited by its econ rather than time. Bios needs to survive for 25 minutes and has to somehow navigate the realm of being blown off the map in the early/mid game. Giga might have the same problems but Giga is much better equipped to deal with that via phantom con pushes and long-range carrier-based offense. The end result is Giga is a top-tier squadgame faction and Bios is relatively unplayable.
Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
What you are saying is untrue. BIOS is extremely good just because they only need time and very few sectors to mine. If a strong BIOS team can mine two full sectors outside of their home then all they need is to harass, defend well (which is easy since they would only have a couple alephs to mine/defend against).phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Oct 29 2014, 09:23 PM) They're not really balanced though. I'm just pointing out that their playstyles are different despite the sharing of certain aspects. As an example, Giga is much better than Bios as a faction precisely because Giga is limited by its econ rather than time. Bios needs to survive for 25 minutes and has to somehow navigate the realm of being blown off the map in the early/mid game. Giga might have the same problems but Giga is much better equipped to deal with that via phantom con pushes and long-range carrier-based offense. The end result is Giga is a top-tier squadgame faction and Bios is relatively unplayable.
BIOS turtle strat is viable in squad games, it just hasnt been demonstrated for a while. Don't be so narrow minded. All factions are viable under the right settings.