Remove ELO from the game alltogether

Allegiance discussion not belonging in another forum.
MrChaos
Posts: 8352
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:00 am

Post by MrChaos »

Gappy wrote:QUOTE (Gappy @ Jan 6 2007, 08:54 PM) I'm the only person at my rank, thus it makes it impossible for me to use a hider. It could change when ELO is finally calculated, but given that the leaderboard could be used to figure out high-ranked players' hiders anyway, I doubt it.

Hands Gappy his free coupon for one beer on MrChaos. An individual with the games highest rank that no one shares indeed is soundly porked when using his hider. No one [else] can make this claim btw so dont que up for one /wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

MrChaos

two solutions of the top of my head
1) play just a little bit worse [ lessons are availible from many of us ]
2) wait someone else while get there too

edit: added [else] so it makes sense and the "helpful" /mrgreen.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="mrgreen.gif" /> advice
Last edited by MrChaos on Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Icemansab
Posts: 87
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Post by Icemansab »

Elo age based is probably the best you can do. In older versions of Elo, (by kills and just plain winning) you had people stacking to win to get elo points, even though they say it didn't matter. Counting your ranks by kills or how many wins you had made that final argument when people chose whether to join stacked yellow or disadvantaged blue. Another reason why you had people stacking was because if you did lose that game, it took away elo from you, which also demoted you if you lost enough. For kills, you had really good people like Noir who would nan the whole friggin game and be a complete pain in the ass, and only got a few kills, thus getting less elo than say some noob who got a bunch of lucky kills. Maybe Noir doesn't care, but the next person might. Elo kill based promotes dogfighting and downsizes important parts like scouting, naning, probing, miner d, etc. Nobody really wants to be a 6 when you've been playing for over year. Overall it makes games a little less fun.

Hiders are cool, but hiders with ranks makes it easy to find out who it is, making hiders not as effective, if not a little pointless.

Thats why I conclude to leave Elo as age based, and not counting any games for elo. If you log into a hider (defining it in the code as anything but your root name) then it doesn't show your rank. So logging into root name = show rank. Hider = no show rank.

Just my thoughts.
Last edited by Icemansab on Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
ToXiC
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Location: Mainz, Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany

Post by ToXiC »

MrChaos wrote:QUOTE (MrChaos @ Jan 7 2007, 03:02 AM) Toxic man first you thought Elo worked off of individual achievements or that is at least what you posted.
No, but rereading my post i agree it might be understood that way. I picked up on the idea of removing the score board as an additional way of cutting down on the ego-whoring as well.
Anyway, the whole deal is: ELO is not ever going to be accurate, as a good player does not boil down to numbers conceived from game result. As you already pointed out, team game results dont work for this.

As for Whiskeys point of people stilll stacking even is there is no score. Thats probably right, and i stand corrected.
It would however be more fair to the player that DO care about teamwork.
But does anyone care to explain why we need negative score for the losing team? Why not 0 points? Do people get worse players when they lose a game? /huh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":huh:" border="0" alt="huh.gif" /> I would think they have gained experience. Why punish players that choose to antistack? Doesnt make sense.
MrChaos
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Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:00 am

Post by MrChaos »

Yeah I can Toxic but can we do this via PM, so this doesnt continue forever and a day?

MrChaos <--- snarky lasted about what three hours total.
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ToXiC
Posts: 24
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Location: Mainz, Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany

Post by ToXiC »

Right, now that im sober again ill try to explain in detail why it does not make sense MrC.
The ELO concept has s design flaw. Here's why:

The whole point of having a ranking system is to have some kind of indicator that allows us to evaluate the players skill in order to make balanced teams. That is its main goal.
Now, lets say for two minutes that would actually work, and games would be balanced. The chance of winning or losing game would be about 50%, meaning you would gain as many points as you would lose, thus your ranking would never change regardless of the amount of experience you have gained.
Now i can hear you say "No, thats wrong, because if you are better than your ELO says you are you are more likely to win." But you'd be wrong, because that would be true for all players, thus your chance would still be around 50%. This system only applys to 1 vs 1 situations. Even chaos theory might apply to this (Pendulum problem) . Actually it would pervert the concept itself by underrating the team with most low ranked players.
Why? The learning curve of allegiance is most likely a logarithm.

Let the probability to win a game be p
Let player skill be S
Let the difference of actual skill to ELO be ΔS

ELO thinks (roughly, its bound to be more complex than that) :

...........ΣS(blue)
p = ------------------ ( ignore the "...", used only for spacing )
...........ΣS(yellow)


In real life it is:

...........(ΣS(blue) + ΔS(blue))
p = ---------------------------------
..........(ΣS(yellow) + ΔS(yellow))

Since ΔS is greatest where the learning curve is steepest that would mean the newbies tip the scale. /huh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":huh:" border="0" alt="huh.gif" />

Negative points for the losing team do not make sense, as it counteracts the design goal. Having a system that only lets you gain ELO by beeing on the winning team more games than losing team counteracts the design goal. Its a Negative-Feedback-Loop.
Therefore i repeat myself:

- Ditch it
- Make it age based, better yet total time played but i dont know if that is available after all the resets.
- Good riddance

There is no better skill indicator than total time played / age. Thats as good as its gonna get. All the time spent on ELO would be better spent on teaching a newbie to not drop probes in alephs, fixing GT doors, teaching Jimmy not to comm when drunk, teaching ToXiC not to post on sensitive topics when drunk, dreaming of Lima and last but certainly not least: play Allegiance.


Edit: fixed some spelling errors
Last edited by ToXiC on Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
MrChaos
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Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:00 am

Post by MrChaos »

MrChaos wrote:QUOTE (MrChaos @ Jan 6 2007, 10:16 PM) Yeah I can Toxic but can we do this via PM, so this doesnt continue forever and a day?

MrChaos <--- snarky lasted about what three hours total.

1) Bayes Theorem
2) Age ranking system rank age not skill
3) Elo ranking systems have to inject points
4) Elo is a ranking sytem, all ranking systems are not Elo

PM or Irc but no more forums. I wish Ive been drinking hmmmm


MrChaos <--- nick is based on his work in the area of Chaos Theory not his trying to cause it /wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />
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DreamWalker
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Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:00 am

Post by DreamWalker »

I'm not a fan of elo.

To what extent people care/even think about elo? To what extent people play games to gain elo?

The truth is that elo points play a not very significant role in the landscape of alleg. Reputation, skills, experience and so on matters much more. Besides, every player contributes something different to the team, and there is a special team chemistry (SRM meds lol) that is created and either loses the game for the team or wins it. Alleg is a cooperative game not some quake shoot em up free for all.

Now, even though personally I'm not a fan of elo, elo and autobalancing seems to be concepts that will work. It doesn't matter if people care or not about elo (wins percantage as a commander is a completely different story though), and it doesn't even matter if elo is capable of providing an exact benchmark of players skills. It needs to only provide a workable approximation. I'm not sure if people actually read the boards before they post, but what elo is for is to provide a balancing mechanism. With autobal on if you were confident in your skills as a comm, and if you were after gaining elo, you would probably limit the amount of vets on your own team! Now, stacking to gain elo is something I have not seen. Who even brings up elo in discussion on alleg servs in that context? Who on earth choses a team thinking about elo? The opposite phenomenon has been taking place already. There is one extremely skilled player and commander who comms a lot, and who in order for the game to count would actually try to make the teams more even (of course autobal is still not in effect but stll for the comm win% the game has to count). This only suggests that the motivation to go after elo/comm wins might actually produce more balanced gameplay.

I'm extremely bored and tired at work. Partying quite a bit and going to work the day after = not a good idea.

If you have made it so far in reading this thread, and getting through Toxic's, MrC and mine posts and now you are reading this, means you are either also extremely bored, don't have a life, are a number crunching freak (OMFG maybe you are an accountant or a librarian?!) or a masochist.

Well, I hope this not particularly entertaining thread will get nuked soon, buried down, or will just die... Special thanks to MrC and Toxic for making it soooo long, and I suppose its fun to discuss the same concerns over and over again about a system that is not even in effect, and that nearly noone cares about (as in: nearly noone cares bout the elo).

I'm gonna go drink caprisun coolers to provide myself with the nutrients and water that my tired brain needs so much. Oh yeah, and I'm off to reading quality posts by JimmyNighthawk which are ridiculous/funny/ingenious/creative/disturbing.

Ah

THIS THREAD MUST DIE.
Tigereye
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Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by Tigereye »

I'd just like to point out a misconception that popped up a few times in this thread by a few people...

Nobody can see Elo right now. Elo ranks are hidden.
The ranks you see ingame are based on AGE because when Elo ranks were reset everyone was a 1500 or a 0.

After a month or two from initial release, ranks will be restored to Elo ranks once they've been distributed away from the initial 1500s and 0s.

(Yes - that means ranks will go through one more big change)

--TE


The Allegiance community currently hates their sysadmin because he is doing: [Too Much] [____________|] [Too Little]
Current reason: Removing the PayPal contribute page. Send Bitcoin instead: 1EccFi98tR5S9BYLuB61sFfxKqqgSKK8Yz. This scale updates regularly.
MrChaos
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Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:00 am

Post by MrChaos »

* Pats Dream on his head *
* Hands him a drink of anything of his choice *
* And also a series of clues *

1) Remember this?
Yeah I can Toxic but can we do this via PM, so this doesnt continue forever and a day?

2) And this too?
PM or Irc but no more forums. I wish Ive been drinking hmmmm

3) And did you know?
Reading this post is voluntary

4) And finally did you know this?
Your a great commander but a weak ranter /tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":P" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" />

DW /wub.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":iluv:" border="0" alt="wub.gif" /> MrChaos
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Elephanthead
Posts: 211
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:00 am

Post by Elephanthead »

I don't understand why everyones rank doesnt start out at 800 or 750 whatever the middle is. It seems impossible to ever get to balance if all voobies start out so astronomically over rated 1500, and noobies so astoundingly underated 0. If i remember Yahoos ranking system you don't start at 0 you start at average. Either way I have yet to see any improvement, the famous and competent commanders get the stack every game. The suckey commanders get the dregs of allegiance and look forward to unescorted constructors and undefended miners.
Not to mention that none of this addresses the imbalance of factions and settings and maps one bit.
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