ZOMG ZOMG ZOMG ZOMG ZOMG ZOMG the rest of the 99% start to show up

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madpeople
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Post by madpeople »

I get the impression that they don't like how things are at the moment, but they don't know how to fix it, they just know they want things to be better.

They see the rich bankers etc (the 1% as they call them) making a mess of things (that recession thing) and everyone else (the 99% as some of them are claiming to be) is paying for their mistakes (through bailouts funded by taxes or with their jobs). They think "When I make a mistake and hurt my company I pay for it (possibly by getting fired), when the bankers make a mistake they seem to get richer and I pay for it" and get a feeling something is wrong with that.

They see the government with not enough money to pay for things and big american companies which are actually registered in the cayman islands but which officially operate in a small office in Ireland which make billions but don't seem to pay very much tax, and think while it's technically legal it isn't really honest.

People seem to be expecting the "average joe"s (as we'll call them) to come up with the solutions to the problems they are complaining about. I suspect the solutions to everything they are unhappy about require a significant amount of specific domain knowledge from many domains. For "average joe" to answer "what do you want to be done about these problems" he would probably have to have doctorates in economics and finance, business management, politics, history, fraud, maths, common sense and mechanical or electronic engineering (because a doctorate in finance or business doesn't give one much credibility). It's like asking a patient how to fix whatever is making his stomach hurt - even the dumbest patient can tell something is wrong, but you'll need a doctor to tell you that the solution is high energy photons focussed on the cancer in the patient's liver.

I think that they know something is wrong. That people expect them to write on their placards what they want done about what is wrong as people usually do in a protest, or provide a sound byte on a news program of what needs to be done in two sentences.
I think that they are unhappy with a great many things. That there isn't room on their placards to write all the solutions to all the problems, and that there isn't room to write the solution to just one problem. Their problems are probably the type that get addressed with 1500 page reports by government committees which then get ignored or lost in your political system resulting in no change or change that misses the point and leaves you worse off. Further more I don't think the protesters know how to fix what they are complaining about (perhaps if they knew exactly how the rich people were doing suspicious things to make money then they would be doing them too).

I could probably turn the question around - if you're asking "what change do they want" then (choosing a specific problem in this case tax evasion by large companies) answer me this:
Suppose a large american company - let's make up a name, how about Google - is making lots of money but doesn't seem to be paying much tax which seems suspicious. How would you fix it?
Don't say "Make them pay tax", surely the solution must be expressible in the area on a placard or in two sentences and obvious to anyone who hasn't studied the tax systems and tax laws of many countries :P
Lindy_Hop
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Post by Lindy_Hop »

MrChaos wrote:QUOTE (MrChaos @ Oct 23 2011, 06:09 PM) 1. What made you come down to the protest
2. What are you protesting
3. What do you think will help make the thiings you are protesting better

...

4) How are you different then the Tea Party people and why were they so much more effective, so quickly
I think Madpeople does a pretty good job summing up some answers to 1-3 and I will take a stab at #4.



Now if you come at this problem from the Tea Party side, your goal is going to be to change government. Fortunately for them, there is a direct path to changing government, you elect different representatives who share your views.

There are well established methods for electing new representatives. Further there are a couple of great tricks to "game" the exiting system into getting your new representative into office. Caucuses in many states are directly exploitable by people powered shenanigans. And then there is the tried and true money angle. Remember that money goes a long way to winning elections. (and yes this isn't the be all tell all so don't bust my balls about self fulfilling statistics of longshot underfunded candidates not winning in unlikely districts). Many Tea Party candidates were able to partner with big money (such as the Koch Brothers) to fund their campaigns. That middle section of the above venn diagram fails to capture "large money lobbies/funds elections to deregulate the F out of everything).

However if you are coming at it from the Occupy Wall Street side there is no direct path to changing big business. You aren't going to game a shareholder meeting the way you can a state caucus. And vote your pocket book against Goldman Sachs? Please. Most recognize that the only thing large enough to step up against big business is Government ... which depending on who you talk to is either arm in arm with big business and/or paralyzed to act in part because of Tea Party successes in limiting government by electing gridlock representatives.

Indirect methods leading to solutions, namely electing OWS friendly representatives to government, currently suffer from two problems: timing and money. The first problem of timing is that elections aren't for another year. Nothing they can do about that but sow seeds now. The other problem is money. Maybe enough George Soros types will fund candidates they may try to run or maybe the Unions will kick in the funds, but most of the funding the Tea Party had isn't going to be in play for the OWS folks.

Honestly the occupy folks are probably doing the most sane thing I can think of when you have a problem you don't have a solution to. Bring attention to the problem by publicizing it. They have through protest. Get more people focused on the problem, keep them focused on the problem, and hope someone thinks up a solution.
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Viscur
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Post by Viscur »

Ozricosis
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Post by Ozricosis »

I went to the Occupy Seattle protest in Westlake Park Friday night. Of course, the cops were there clearing everyone out so the park rangers could clean it up etc etc. Most of them were homeless or appeared to be homeless. A lot of them were just hippy types. Nobody was really doing anything. They looked tired. And hungry. Went back Saturday before work and there were a lot more people. I talked to a few of them, one was obviously medicated for schizophrenia or something. He had the lithium gaze. lol. Another was a white collar guy, he was feeding the protesters every day and accepted some tips on food born illness safety from me. (I'm a chef) The last person I spoke with was a superbly stoned girl who kept repeating over and over that being positive was the only way to get anything done and that negative energy was bad blahblahblah, I walked away from her because she was so very wrong.

I'm all for the OWS movement. I want corporate execs, bankers, investors and their scum to be punished and removed from sight. I want the system to change, it's obviously $#@!ed up. But, aside from a coup de grace, I honestly think nothing will get better with just protests and voting and crap.
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germloucks
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Post by germloucks »

I didnt know you lived up here ozzy, i'm stationed at McChord AFB. I was getting completely @#(!faced downtown Tacoma last Friday night.



As far as what is different about the Tea Party and OWS, is that the Tea Party was promptly oragnized into a large political machine serving the needs of certain politicians and agendas which were already there. It was a movement that was seen and used as a referendum on the healthcare bill, and money from donors poured into the organizations.

I dont think a most of the original Tea Party message is still around, its name and "base" has been appropriated for other things. But it doesnt matter for them now, the Tea Party is clocking in at around 15% favorability in the most recent round of polls.

The conservatives in the US seem to be much better organizers than Liberals.
Last edited by germloucks on Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ozricosis
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Post by Ozricosis »

I'm living in Magnolia. I have no idea where McChord AFB is cause I'm a newb but yes, I am in your area now. :D
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germloucks
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Post by germloucks »

Ozricosis wrote:QUOTE (Ozricosis @ Oct 24 2011, 01:39 PM) I'm living in Magnolia. I have no idea where McChord AFB is cause I'm a newb but yes, I am in your area now. :D

DT Seattle is about a 45 minute drive north for me, depending on traffic. It must be nice up there though, i shudder to think what your rent is. You up in U of Washington? Or did you find real work?
Last edited by germloucks on Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
madpeople
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Post by madpeople »

germloucks wrote:QUOTE (germloucks @ Oct 24 2011, 09:32 PM) As far as what is different about the Tea Party and OWS
I thought the difference was that OWS didn't like perceived injustice corruption in the world but don't know what to do about it. Where as the Tea Party are just crazy but they know what they want to change and how to change it.

<-- is a little bored so decided some creative editing and silly suggestions is in order.
Ozricosis wrote:QUOTE (Ozricosis @ Oct 24 2011, 08:52 PM) being positive was the only way to get anything done...

...it's obviously $#@!ed up. But, aside from a coup...
I agree. What they need is a leader with a simple message with nice sound bytes that fit on placards.

I did some googling and found a few: or rather, I thought what would be the worst ideas to go about giving them and googled "slogans used by revolutionaries" - what's the worst that can happen if you plant the seeds of the idea that the best way to affect change is through violence in an armed society?

To get them moving:
"An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory" or "An ounce of practice is worth more than tons of preaching"
"Action expresses priorities."
"We have no right to believe that freedom can be won without struggle"
"If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything"
"Fear has its use but cowardice has none."
"The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall"
"A 'No' uttered from the deepest conviction is better than a 'Yes' merely uttered to please, or worse, to avoid trouble."

To make statements about corporate corruption:
"Freedom in capitalist society always remains about the same as it was in ancient Greek republics: Freedom for slave corporation owners"
"Crime is a product of social excess"

To talk about loss of freedom and liberty (e.g. patriot act):
"Fascism is capitalism in decay"
"Man’s freedom is lacking if somebody else controls what he needs, for need may result in man’s enslavement of man"

Wait what?:
"Change only comes through the barrel of a gun"
"The theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property"

Others:
"Healthy discontent is the prelude to progress."
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

Hey Nuke, did I just get everyone who read this thread on a CIA watch list? :lol:
Last edited by madpeople on Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MrChaos
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Post by MrChaos »

How can you possiblely know what was said to me by:

A white male Jesuit in his mid20s who was just back from the protests in Bahrain
A black women in her middle fifties who is a full fledged communist and simply adores Ghaddafi even if she spells the name wrong
A white female in her late teems who talked quite earnestly to me about how much she was learning from interacting with the media
A certified hipster in his early 20s and sabbatical from law school with an encyclopedic knowledge of the issues
A black man in his fifties who was a graduate of the same high school as mine ( more then a decade earlier) but has ended up living in a homeless shelter

I'm not having trouble following the bouncing ball gents, especially after a few hours onsite. There is no coherent message atm, there is a no central plan, it is a great big mosh pit of disenfranchised anti-Tea Partiers. A few said they would pack up and go if they could get congress to enact a law banning contributions from corps. Others are aiming to make home foreclosures the rallying point. The details are by group vote and welp designing by committee is well designing by committee.

Fwiw I still came away with enough respect for the organizers errrm spirit that Ive bought five sleeping bags and am going to take them down to the site.


Btw they can use a couple of whip smart PhDs with all the answers... shall I tell them you 're coming down? Medical and engineering both slots open on the head committee too. Sorry but the idea of either of you trying to get the herd moving in the same direction makes me giggle. Have at it bright eyes :lol:

edit:
I try to keep my word and if you're still interested Grim I'll pm you details, not much sense of boring the others. Don't worry it won't hurt my feelings if you say meh

edit2:
I am really just giggling at the idea gentlemen and not at you. Peace
Last edited by MrChaos on Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sundance_ »

GREEEEEEEEEEED!!!!!


Killing America since.... well it's been around a while.
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