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SaiSoma · Post by **SaiSoma** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:15 pm

Heyoka wrote:QUOTE (Heyoka @ Oct 7 2011, 12:10 AM) Liberty is not yours and yours alone. It is shared with everyone on this planet. At least that's the way it should be. Liberty is a right to everyone, not those who "earn" it or those who have "won the competition". It is EVERYONES right. This is an ideal I am willing to fight and die for, and probably will when the time comes.

Heyoka, I hate to pick you apart, but your logic has flaws a 747 could fly through. Liberty is paid for and earned. That is why you HAVE to fight for it. In some crazy not real world it is a right, but that world does not exist, so there's no point in talking about it.

Heyoka wrote:QUOTE (Heyoka @ Oct 7 2011, 12:10 AM) Progress is so $#@!ing scary to everyone. Everyone is so scared of losing what they have, that they gag at the thought of helping another human being. It's sick.
It's animalistic.

Gag at the thought of helping a human being . . .mmmmm. .ever read the grasshopper and the ant? Or ever heard the saying "god helps those who help themselves?" I help people all the time, but I do NOT LIKE having my resouces taken from me and given to someone else. Socialism at the heart is just that and nothing else. You work harder? We take more. You work less? We give you more. It's %RS^A backwards. You end up with a society of do-nothings and then NOONE does a good job, product quality sucks, service sucks (see those trends now? or are you too young to remember when things were better?) and your overall GDP drops, blah blah blah.

Heyoka wrote:QUOTE (Heyoka @ Oct 7 2011, 12:10 AM) Shut up, help people, be generous, because if you do I WILL DO THE SAME FOR YOU when the time comes. Why? Because I am able to. I am able to because you enabled me to through your generosity.

How Heyoka? You're on food stamps. How are you going to help. YOU AREN'T ABLE TO. You want someone to give you enough so you can give to others? Why in the hell shoudl they trust you? You said yourself you have a mental illness that keeps you from being reliable and organized. Why should anyone trust you?

Heyoka wrote:QUOTE (Heyoka @ Oct 7 2011, 12:10 AM) Though, of course, I'm just an uneducated high-school drop out who has no idea what anything means.

Yup. nail hits head.

Makida · Post by **Makida** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:45 pm

I think both sides lose touch with reality completely, focusing on idealism. The idea of some pure ideal capitalism where everyone can achieve anything they want by working hard enough and everyone gets exactly what they deserve is just as removed from reality as a communist utopia. But it sounds more "mature."

ryujin · Post by **ryujin** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:28 pm

SaiSoma wrote:QUOTE (SaiSoma @ Oct 7 2011, 09:15 AM) Liberty is paid for and earned. That is why you HAVE to fight for it. In some crazy not real world it is a right, but that world does not exist, so there's no point in talking about it.

acutally I disagree. In a crazy world it is not a right.
Unfortunately that is the world we live on, and you are right about us having to fight for it.
But Heyoka would be 100% correct to say Liberty should be a right.

Dorjan · Post by **Dorjan** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:57 pm

girlyboy wrote:QUOTE (girlyboy @ Oct 7 2011, 01:45 PM) I think both sides lose touch with reality completely, focusing on idealism. The idea of some pure ideal capitalism where everyone can achieve anything they want by working hard enough and everyone gets exactly what they deserve is just as removed from reality as a communist utopia. But it sounds more "mature."

That's a very good point, although I have to say Ideal Capitalism breeds strength in the human geno (natural selection, survival of the fittest) so there are some better "natural" by-products of each. Look at that how you wish however.

I honestly think the right idea has already come and gone. Workhouses. Cheap labour for the people who can't do anything themselves. The difference is two fold from the old workhouses:

1) Better general conditions. Treat the workers as workers not slaves ffs. Provide them with housing close by and give them a wage to buy everything else with (new version of council housing!)
2) In-house education. You can reward the ones who are trying to get out of the workhouses with higher pay. If they're doing well in in-house education (off-site ofc whatever is needed) then raise their pay. Help them find other jobs.

This gives production boost to the nation, "cheap" labour for some things, "free"-housing which sustains itself from the profits of the production. Lowers unemployment drasticly. Raises general education. Lowers hand-outs almost completely.

Clearly in the past these sort of places were abused but that was a different problem.

Some might say "well that's just a mini prison" well have you seen some countries prisons? The ones which actually, you know, work? Exactly.

raumvogel · Post by **raumvogel** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:01 pm

Capitalism is clearly thew future. What KIND of Capitalism is the question.

Broodwich · Post by **Broodwich** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:26 pm

god this guy is like word for word cam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFz1VVXsWRU

SharpFish · Post by **SharpFish** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:02 pm

Dorjan wrote:QUOTE (Dorjan @ Oct 7 2011, 07:57 AM) That's a very good point, although I have to say Ideal Capitalism breeds strength in the human geno (natural selection, survival of the fittest) so there are some better "natural" by-products of each. Look at that how you wish however.

Nonsense. Capitalism is the survival of the least fit. After all the one thing we know is they aren't able to support themselves, they have to rely on workers to support them.

Dorjan · Post by **Dorjan** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:05 pm

SharpFish wrote:QUOTE (SharpFish @ Oct 7 2011, 07:02 PM) Nonsense. Capitalism is the survival of the least fit. After all the one thing we know is they aren't able to support themselves, they have to rely on workers to support them.

Well, no, that's one of the draw backs of the 2nd generation, what's the name... it slips my mind. The inheritance is the issue, not the original idea / work ethic.

I don't understand if the least fittest would get to the top? Do you honestly please that? If so, just become more stupid and you'll succeed right?

Edit, Brood posted that about sharp

he needs to learn to quote!

Broodwich · Post by **Broodwich** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:05 pm

SharpFish wrote:QUOTE (SharpFish @ Oct 7 2011, 12:02 PM) Nonsense. Capitalism is the survival of the least fit. After all the one thing we know is they aren't able to support themselves, they have to rely on workers to support them.

do you even read what youre saying

SharpFish · Post by **SharpFish** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:05 pm

Sundance_ wrote:QUOTE (Sundance_ @ Oct 6 2011, 02:57 PM) Naw, the poorest people are on foodstamps but have no motivation to work and find a job. Why would you, when your unemployment + foodstamp wage is more than what you would make at 30 hours a week of $12.50/hr work?

Shrug. Yeah, that's what happens when you let capitalists get away with paying poverty wages.

QUOTE America is fast becoming a country of entitlements, where you only have to be alive to have the government hold your hand through life.[/quote]

You're all subservient to capitalism, I don';t see how you could be any worse off.