ITT: Kage points out he knows all the ASGS flaws, ludicruously refers to the entire rest of the community besides himself as a "small but vocal minority", demands a revolution of the ZL system, proposes to split the community if that that doesn't happen, informs us this is all critical to some personal business venture of his, gives a ten-day ultimatum, insists he should have access to the keys to the kingdom, claims to have the best interests of the community at heart.
`QU
Questions to whoever is in charge
lolcashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Aug 28 2010, 04:56 PM) ludicruously refers to the entire rest of the community besides himself as a "small but vocal minority"
Like it or not, the forum whores who're taking KGJV to task ARE a "small but vocal minority" - there's a reason we use ASGS polls rather than forum polls to gauge the feelings of the community.
I'm in charge of this community.KGJV wrote:QUOTE (KGJV @ Aug 28 2010, 11:47 AM) So 3 pages already and still no direct answers ... Like MP pointed out, I wish this forum allowed to moderate my own topics.
May be make this topic read-only to everyone else ?
To everyone else out there, plz stop commenting or starting drama, I just want answers , not comments or your opinion.
Actually I don't want your opinion if you're not in charge. Sorry. Feel free to open new topics about each question if you want to comment/discuss them; I'll be happy to participate there.
To whoever is in charge:
If you don't want to answer my questions, just say so (and why too would be appreciated).
If you don't want to answer them in public, just PM me the responses (and I'll be happy to make them publicly available unless you have a valid and reasonable reason not too).
And Plz stop trying to guess what I'm thinking or want. You're all wrong.
I have important decisions to make. They're lot of 'foundation' money and a new company and a very big company involved. This explicitly needs to be publicly discussed for (future) legal reasons. And I've a big NDA so this is all I can say for now.
I just want these answers. And the deadline is in 10 days.
You should point out to that very big company that unless they're Microsoft, anything they put into THIS game is going to be property of Microsoft.
I want a pony in 10 days. I also want big piles of money in 10 days.
I'll let you know when I receive them.
"Don't screw around with the $#@!head. Trust the $#@!head."
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NightRychune
- Posts: 3065
- Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:00 am
I feel even more awkward about Kage asking for transparency yet dismissing why he wants it.
QUOTE neotoxin@SF (all): i'm too tired of commanding right now
neotoxin@SF (all): i just want to fly ... and face$#@! brood
^Broodwich@SysX (all): ewwww
^Broodwich@SysX (all): that stuff has gotten me into trouble too much[/quote]
neotoxin@SF (all): i just want to fly ... and face$#@! brood
^Broodwich@SysX (all): ewwww
^Broodwich@SysX (all): that stuff has gotten me into trouble too much[/quote]
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NightRychune
- Posts: 3065
- Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:00 am
Hi.
First, I did not hide the "Motivation" topic, I moved it to the appropriate forum. Imago posted about his motivation for development, so I moved the topic to the Development forum.
I agree it was a very derailed topic, and in hindsight I should have probably split it instead...but it's like 300 posts! And besides, there was a very good chance the dramaqueens would have created a new one in its place.
I'm sorry you had to wait so long for this reply, causing you to post again with an ultimatum to the community. It was 16 hours since this topic was created which spanned the night in my timezone. A friendly reminder: forums on the Internet are not a direct form of communication, so delays can be expected before a visitor arrives, reads, and posts a reply.
I've spent some time reading through everyone's replies, and it seems that there are voices on many sides of these issues. I'm perfectly happy debating them, but I agree with French_Touch that this General forum isn't necessarily the best place for it since it's one of the first things new players will see.
Anyways.
The ASGS license is not a BS reason, it's a valid reason. When Pook granted me access to Thalgor's ASGS server, he told me he would not be giving me the sourcecode. After some debate and lots of time retrying, it was made clear to me: ASGS's source would not be released. I wish we got it, but we didn't and there's no sense beating that dead horse. He also gave instructions to limit the access to the serverside code as there are parts of it that can be used against Allegiance if someone wanted to. I called these two "licensing issues" because Pook created it and left instructions on what to do with it. That's a "license" in my mind.
You say you want the keys yourself in case something goes wrong. I did answer this and told you that you would not get the keys because of your prior threats at splitting this community. "If you're asking for them, you probably shouldn't have them."
I told you I'd meet you half way and share the keys with others instead to address your concerns of me going missing. (If you must know, I'm about to issue key-parts to the ZLs using Shamir's Secret Sharing algorithm. I'll split the necessary keys into separate parts and distribute each part to each ZL. The majority of the ZLs (not all) can recombine the keys by working together in the event of an emergency. This technical point can be discussed in another topic)
Q1 - why can't I (and others) have the keys ? (keys= dns keys, daily backup of this site, daily backup of asgs db and css db later).
A1 - You can't because frankly I don't trust your intentions. Others can have the keys, and do have them.
Q2 - what are the official duties and role of Dev ZL ? (I want a detailed post/wiki about this)
A2 - Administering the SVN repositories, setting goals, deciding which features belong in which releases, manage the release cycles, build the betas and the new releases, sign them with the community cert, and being the guy who wades through the heated debates and puts his/her foot down to say: I've heard both sides and have decided we will do *this*.
Q3 - Are you willing to have a public debate (and a vote) about removing hiders ?
A3 - Sure, but if the vote shows the majority of our players like the ability to change their name, are you willing to stop using this issue as some kind of requirement to keep you from taking drastic action?
Q4 - Are you willing to have a public debate (and a vote) about how ZLs are chosen and how long they stay in office ? eventually a more general debate about how the community is organised and managed.
A4 - Sure we can. Bonus: we are already having a general debate about how the community is organized and managed.
Q5 - Are you willing to have a public debate (and a vote) about not letting Alleg die because a small but loud minority doesn't want the required drastic changes ? We can eventually extend this debate (and a vote) to splitting the game and the community into 2 distinct groups, each going its own way.
A5 - I'm going to have to call shinanigans on this question because of the implicit admission you slipped in there. I'll answer the two parts distinctly. We can definitely debate and vote about not letting Allegiance die. I bet 100% will vote to keep Allegiance alive.
As for splitting up this community, I think that is the absolute worst possible thing that could happen to this game. The fact that you're even considering it as a good idea makes me question your previous words saying you loved Allegiance and did not want it to die.
As was said before, I would rather relinquish my role and let the community go in another direction if it meant saving the community from a disastrous split.
Q6 - Why are there hidden/private forums here ? Why ZLs debates and discussions aren't public ?
A6 - There are hidden/private forums here so that topics can be discussed efficiently. If everyone was able to debate every point in every decision, nothing would ever get done. Leaders need to make decisions, and that always means disappointing someone. Once the decision is made, the actions should be taken to carry it out. Dragging the decision through public debate only stalls progress as effort is wasted debating a decision that was already made.
To give an analogy, every company has its board-of-director meetings held in private - even the publicly traded ones. Police are public servants and have private discussions. Even the open-source world has its private conversations; Linus Torvalds takes things offline and discusses them with the relevant developers and code maintainers privately in order to arrive at a decision unhindered by the distractions of public discourse.
All leaders have offices, and there *ARE* doors on those offices. They have every right to close it when they want, and let people in to have quiet discussions without the rest of the world hearing.
Q7 - Can we get a detailed description(hardware, OS, software, ownership, costs) of the systems used to run Alleg and support this community along with an explanation of why they're built like this ? (why this medieval forum software for instance!!!)
A7 - Most of the information you seek is in the wiki, so your answer is easy to find. The only parts that aren't are: the ASGS server runs Windows 2003 on a server with 8 CPUs, 12 GB RAM, and a dedicated 100MBit connection to Cogent's Internet backbone in the Toronto Internet Exchange building. The forums seem to be working fine, and are the most recent revision of this version of IPB. Upgrading to a newer IPB will cost money, and there aren't any features in it that I think make it worthwhile. Maybe I'm wrong? What features are you missing on our forums? If the ZLs want another forum they can find a forum they like and get it installed. If they want me to install it for them, I'll be here.
T1 - Do you think you would do the same job the same way you do now if all the hardware were provided and owned by someone else ?
A1 - Probably not, nope. Because the hardware is mine, I can make changes I want when I want and how I want without delay. If it was someone else's, I'd have to do the same job differently. I don't expect this would be any different than how TheBored manages the ASGS server now. The work would still get done, but differently, so to me it wouldn't really matter.
T2 - Would you let someone else do your current job while still providing (and paying for) the current hardware ? (like MrC did for solap for instance).
A2 - Yes I would, and I already do. TheBored does my job too. Also, the stripe gameserver is hosted on hardware I own, but administered and paid for by people who wish to be nameless.
I hope I've answered your questions adequately.
And then you resumed drama by posting this topic!
Frankly, your posts over the last week worry me...they didn't at first, but put together they do.
At first you just posted a date of November 11th, 2011 and hinted that an "Allegiance 2" would be coming out then.
Hey that's great - I'd love to see an Allegiance-style game with modern touches! The reason we're all still here is because there aren't other games out there like Allegiance.
But then you hint at splitting the community if certain demands aren't met. That's scary.
Then you hint again at a hard-and-fast deadline of 10 days, implying that at that time the answers won't matter because you will have taken matters into your own hands as a result of this inferred Allegiance 2 agreement you have with some companies.
KGJV - I'm all for redundancies in access to protect the community. I'm all for backups and procedures for disaster recovery. I'm DEFINITELY for an "Allegiance 2" type game which could finally rival or beat our current Allegiance's gameplay. Man that'd be awesome.
But I'm vehemently opposed to ANYTHING which threatens this game and the community which keeps it playable. And when I see threats, ultimatums, and deadlines being posted... I gotta wonder if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck... should I believe him when he says he's a sheep who just wants "the best" for the community? Or do you just want "the best" for you?
--TE
First, I did not hide the "Motivation" topic, I moved it to the appropriate forum. Imago posted about his motivation for development, so I moved the topic to the Development forum.
I agree it was a very derailed topic, and in hindsight I should have probably split it instead...but it's like 300 posts! And besides, there was a very good chance the dramaqueens would have created a new one in its place.
I'm sorry you had to wait so long for this reply, causing you to post again with an ultimatum to the community. It was 16 hours since this topic was created which spanned the night in my timezone. A friendly reminder: forums on the Internet are not a direct form of communication, so delays can be expected before a visitor arrives, reads, and posts a reply.
I've spent some time reading through everyone's replies, and it seems that there are voices on many sides of these issues. I'm perfectly happy debating them, but I agree with French_Touch that this General forum isn't necessarily the best place for it since it's one of the first things new players will see.
Anyways.
The ASGS license is not a BS reason, it's a valid reason. When Pook granted me access to Thalgor's ASGS server, he told me he would not be giving me the sourcecode. After some debate and lots of time retrying, it was made clear to me: ASGS's source would not be released. I wish we got it, but we didn't and there's no sense beating that dead horse. He also gave instructions to limit the access to the serverside code as there are parts of it that can be used against Allegiance if someone wanted to. I called these two "licensing issues" because Pook created it and left instructions on what to do with it. That's a "license" in my mind.
You say you want the keys yourself in case something goes wrong. I did answer this and told you that you would not get the keys because of your prior threats at splitting this community. "If you're asking for them, you probably shouldn't have them."
I told you I'd meet you half way and share the keys with others instead to address your concerns of me going missing. (If you must know, I'm about to issue key-parts to the ZLs using Shamir's Secret Sharing algorithm. I'll split the necessary keys into separate parts and distribute each part to each ZL. The majority of the ZLs (not all) can recombine the keys by working together in the event of an emergency. This technical point can be discussed in another topic)
I thought this was clear. The ZLs are collectively in charge of the community and are the voice behind the direction this place will take. I am a server administrator who maintains the server that hosts Allegiance's ASGS, Lobby, and Forums. I carry out their orders on my server as long as they continue to want me to do it. TheBored is my assistant who I am training to help me administer ASGS. Your questions can be answered by the ZLs, but I'll give my answers here if you care.KGJV wrote:QUOTE (KGJV @ Aug 27 2010, 08:37 PM) SO WHO THE $#@! IS IN CHARGE HERE FFS ? WHO CAN ANSWER MY QUESTIONS AND MY REQUESTS AND DECIDE ?
Q1 - why can't I (and others) have the keys ? (keys= dns keys, daily backup of this site, daily backup of asgs db and css db later).
A1 - You can't because frankly I don't trust your intentions. Others can have the keys, and do have them.
Q2 - what are the official duties and role of Dev ZL ? (I want a detailed post/wiki about this)
A2 - Administering the SVN repositories, setting goals, deciding which features belong in which releases, manage the release cycles, build the betas and the new releases, sign them with the community cert, and being the guy who wades through the heated debates and puts his/her foot down to say: I've heard both sides and have decided we will do *this*.
Q3 - Are you willing to have a public debate (and a vote) about removing hiders ?
A3 - Sure, but if the vote shows the majority of our players like the ability to change their name, are you willing to stop using this issue as some kind of requirement to keep you from taking drastic action?
Q4 - Are you willing to have a public debate (and a vote) about how ZLs are chosen and how long they stay in office ? eventually a more general debate about how the community is organised and managed.
A4 - Sure we can. Bonus: we are already having a general debate about how the community is organized and managed.
Q5 - Are you willing to have a public debate (and a vote) about not letting Alleg die because a small but loud minority doesn't want the required drastic changes ? We can eventually extend this debate (and a vote) to splitting the game and the community into 2 distinct groups, each going its own way.
A5 - I'm going to have to call shinanigans on this question because of the implicit admission you slipped in there. I'll answer the two parts distinctly. We can definitely debate and vote about not letting Allegiance die. I bet 100% will vote to keep Allegiance alive.
As for splitting up this community, I think that is the absolute worst possible thing that could happen to this game. The fact that you're even considering it as a good idea makes me question your previous words saying you loved Allegiance and did not want it to die.
As was said before, I would rather relinquish my role and let the community go in another direction if it meant saving the community from a disastrous split.
Q6 - Why are there hidden/private forums here ? Why ZLs debates and discussions aren't public ?
A6 - There are hidden/private forums here so that topics can be discussed efficiently. If everyone was able to debate every point in every decision, nothing would ever get done. Leaders need to make decisions, and that always means disappointing someone. Once the decision is made, the actions should be taken to carry it out. Dragging the decision through public debate only stalls progress as effort is wasted debating a decision that was already made.
To give an analogy, every company has its board-of-director meetings held in private - even the publicly traded ones. Police are public servants and have private discussions. Even the open-source world has its private conversations; Linus Torvalds takes things offline and discusses them with the relevant developers and code maintainers privately in order to arrive at a decision unhindered by the distractions of public discourse.
All leaders have offices, and there *ARE* doors on those offices. They have every right to close it when they want, and let people in to have quiet discussions without the rest of the world hearing.
Q7 - Can we get a detailed description(hardware, OS, software, ownership, costs) of the systems used to run Alleg and support this community along with an explanation of why they're built like this ? (why this medieval forum software for instance!!!)
A7 - Most of the information you seek is in the wiki, so your answer is easy to find. The only parts that aren't are: the ASGS server runs Windows 2003 on a server with 8 CPUs, 12 GB RAM, and a dedicated 100MBit connection to Cogent's Internet backbone in the Toronto Internet Exchange building. The forums seem to be working fine, and are the most recent revision of this version of IPB. Upgrading to a newer IPB will cost money, and there aren't any features in it that I think make it worthwhile. Maybe I'm wrong? What features are you missing on our forums? If the ZLs want another forum they can find a forum they like and get it installed. If they want me to install it for them, I'll be here.
T1 - Do you think you would do the same job the same way you do now if all the hardware were provided and owned by someone else ?
A1 - Probably not, nope. Because the hardware is mine, I can make changes I want when I want and how I want without delay. If it was someone else's, I'd have to do the same job differently. I don't expect this would be any different than how TheBored manages the ASGS server now. The work would still get done, but differently, so to me it wouldn't really matter.
T2 - Would you let someone else do your current job while still providing (and paying for) the current hardware ? (like MrC did for solap for instance).
A2 - Yes I would, and I already do. TheBored does my job too. Also, the stripe gameserver is hosted on hardware I own, but administered and paid for by people who wish to be nameless.
I hope I've answered your questions adequately.
Dude - you were the one who started this drama when you hijacked Imago's Motivation topic!KGJV wrote:QUOTE (KGJV @ Aug 28 2010, 12:47 PM) plz stop commenting or starting drama, I just want answers , not comments or your opinion.
And then you resumed drama by posting this topic!
Frankly, your posts over the last week worry me...they didn't at first, but put together they do.
At first you just posted a date of November 11th, 2011 and hinted that an "Allegiance 2" would be coming out then.
Hey that's great - I'd love to see an Allegiance-style game with modern touches! The reason we're all still here is because there aren't other games out there like Allegiance.
But then you hint at splitting the community if certain demands aren't met. That's scary.
Then you hint again at a hard-and-fast deadline of 10 days, implying that at that time the answers won't matter because you will have taken matters into your own hands as a result of this inferred Allegiance 2 agreement you have with some companies.
KGJV - I'm all for redundancies in access to protect the community. I'm all for backups and procedures for disaster recovery. I'm DEFINITELY for an "Allegiance 2" type game which could finally rival or beat our current Allegiance's gameplay. Man that'd be awesome.
But I'm vehemently opposed to ANYTHING which threatens this game and the community which keeps it playable. And when I see threats, ultimatums, and deadlines being posted... I gotta wonder if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck... should I believe him when he says he's a sheep who just wants "the best" for the community? Or do you just want "the best" for you?
--TE
The Allegiance community currently hates their sysadmin because he is doing: [Too Much] [____________|] [Too Little]
Current reason: Removing the PayPal contribute page. Send Bitcoin instead: 1EccFi98tR5S9BYLuB61sFfxKqqgSKK8Yz. This scale updates regularly.
