I think you missed the fact that I want to PROMOTE mid/late game Hvy Scouts (including Rix) WITH additional supporting tech BECAUSE only then do they actually seem to help statistically. Sorry, but I think it is absolutely foolish NOT to heavily consider non-stacked win/loss records, especially when filtering on the ship in question. Effectiveness translates into wins. Again, (and again and again and again) if a particular tech was truly unstoppable or overpowered, where are the overwhelming wins? Remember stacked games DO NOT COUNT. We had several NON-STACKED games in the past few days where Rix Hvy Scouts got owned at all stages, even ones with Mini-AC2/3. In fact, we just had a game where Belter Hvy Scouts were gutting their Rix counter parts. So the “empirical” evidence works both ways. This is why I don't balance based only on complaints and whining. If the stats don't back up the claims, they don't carry much weight.Clay_Pigeon wrote:QUOTE (Clay_Pigeon @ Jul 14 2006, 01:12 AM) I don't think analyzing the win/loss ratio for a poor strategy is a proper line of reasoning. Lots of people rushed rix hvy scouts in lieu of econ/expansion, and paid the price for it. I think a much more accurate analysis is to compare mid/late game situations in which rix hvy scouts have been deployed, vs mid/late game situations in which hvy scouts from other factions have been deployed.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure a simple win/loss statistical analysis will suffice. Unfortunately, the only thing I can provide is anecdotal evidence.
1) Today....guitar vs mad acc. Guitar went rix hvy scouts (with expansion and econ). The result: His team held back adv exp belters with nothing more than garr tech. He got a home exp, eventually. But the whole reason why Belters couldn't finish was that every rix hvy scout was a disproportionately large threat. In the presense of hvy int nans, they killed miners, constructors at will. If he were Bios, Giga, or even Dreg, I'm not sure the guitar's team would have had as much success.
2) Yesterday(?) guitar vs abom. Guitar went rix, and ended up losing his sup to adv tf sup. However, he bought rix hvy scouts. Again, with nothing but garr tech, he beat back adv tf sup and eventually won the game. Again, if he were any other faction, I doubt hvy scouts would have been so successful (hvy scouts sporting basic tech no less).
Rix Hvy Scouts
A team can execute a tactic right off the bat that has no bearing on a ship's effectiveness.
For example: A commander can rush bombers immediately after launch, and quickly bomb and win the game. If this worked a majority of the time the statistics would show that rushing heavy bombers was a good tactic... or if it didn't work a majority of the time (like rushing heavy scouts) it would show that this tactic was not a good one.
Neither of those outcomes have any bearing on how powerful (or not powerful) that bomber is (or it's ABs).
The reason why I posted this thread in the first place is because of the inconsistencies in ship effectiveness. I'll list them here:Rixian weapons have a factionwide perk. Yes this one is obvious, and is one drop in the bucket.Rixian hvy scouts have a mini-AC instead of a gattling gun. Yes this one is obvious too.Rixian hvy scouts have a small/thin hitbox making them harder to hit. Another drop in the bucket (but so is GT so it's not a big one)Rixian hvy scouts have a full AC turret making them stronger than opposing hvy scoutsEnemy hvy scouts have missiles giving them a perceived "edge" on rix hvy scouts... however their missiles don't always hit, and any competent pilot can dodge most missiles making them almost ineffectiveRixian hvy scouts stronger weapon (withfaction-perked strength) hits with the pilot's accuracy and does not rely on the random number generator employed by chaff to counter missiles (or dodging). This higher percentage of (STRONG) gun hits outweighs the strength lost due to lack of missiles.For these reasons, I believe Rixian Hvy Scouts to be stronger than other factions' Hvy Scouts. I also believe that if two equally skilled pilots were to face off with all combinations of Hvy Scouts, the Rixian one will have a statistically higher rate of combat wins. Not game wins, combat wins.
*NOTE* To repeat my above point, the statistics I am talking about are comparing ship effectiveness to ship effectiveness. I am *NOT* talking about comparing ship effectiveness against strategic effectiveness, trashtalking effectiveness, or the "Posters On" graphics setting. You can't compare apples to oranges, so I won't try.
--TE
For example: A commander can rush bombers immediately after launch, and quickly bomb and win the game. If this worked a majority of the time the statistics would show that rushing heavy bombers was a good tactic... or if it didn't work a majority of the time (like rushing heavy scouts) it would show that this tactic was not a good one.
Neither of those outcomes have any bearing on how powerful (or not powerful) that bomber is (or it's ABs).
The reason why I posted this thread in the first place is because of the inconsistencies in ship effectiveness. I'll list them here:Rixian weapons have a factionwide perk. Yes this one is obvious, and is one drop in the bucket.Rixian hvy scouts have a mini-AC instead of a gattling gun. Yes this one is obvious too.Rixian hvy scouts have a small/thin hitbox making them harder to hit. Another drop in the bucket (but so is GT so it's not a big one)Rixian hvy scouts have a full AC turret making them stronger than opposing hvy scoutsEnemy hvy scouts have missiles giving them a perceived "edge" on rix hvy scouts... however their missiles don't always hit, and any competent pilot can dodge most missiles making them almost ineffectiveRixian hvy scouts stronger weapon (withfaction-perked strength) hits with the pilot's accuracy and does not rely on the random number generator employed by chaff to counter missiles (or dodging). This higher percentage of (STRONG) gun hits outweighs the strength lost due to lack of missiles.For these reasons, I believe Rixian Hvy Scouts to be stronger than other factions' Hvy Scouts. I also believe that if two equally skilled pilots were to face off with all combinations of Hvy Scouts, the Rixian one will have a statistically higher rate of combat wins. Not game wins, combat wins.
*NOTE* To repeat my above point, the statistics I am talking about are comparing ship effectiveness to ship effectiveness. I am *NOT* talking about comparing ship effectiveness against strategic effectiveness, trashtalking effectiveness, or the "Posters On" graphics setting. You can't compare apples to oranges, so I won't try.
--TE
Last edited by Tigereye on Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Allegiance community currently hates their sysadmin because he is doing: [Too Much] [____________|] [Too Little]
Current reason: Removing the PayPal contribute page. Send Bitcoin instead: 1EccFi98tR5S9BYLuB61sFfxKqqgSKK8Yz. This scale updates regularly.
PS:
--TE
That's all well and good, and should work well at countering the strategic effectiveness of the Hvy Scout Rush. This will not change the strength of the hvy scouts.Noir wrote:QUOTE (Noir @ Jul 13 2006, 10:49 PM) I have mentioned several times that I am considering the idea of having Hvy Scouts also require a spec rock tech base to slow down these typically strategically foolish rushes as well as promote the acquisition of the higher level tech that actually makes them worth while.
--TE
The Allegiance community currently hates their sysadmin because he is doing: [Too Much] [____________|] [Too Little]
Current reason: Removing the PayPal contribute page. Send Bitcoin instead: 1EccFi98tR5S9BYLuB61sFfxKqqgSKK8Yz. This scale updates regularly.
Jumping in late here.
I don't see why it is such a bad thing that one factions ship type is not equal to the same ship type of another faction. So Rix Hvy Scouts beat other heavy scouts (or are alleged to at similar tech levels). Is that a reason to Nerf them?
I think what Noir is saying, is YES if that imbalance is so large it tilts games, if NOT, leave it alone.
I suppose you could 'balance' factions by making all ships of 'equal' level balanced in power but just 'different'.
Or you could balance things by other differences. The risk here is you end up with different factions always going one tech path i.e. the optimal tech path for that faction. But there are other ways to do that matching each ship type, ship for ship.
I don't see why it is such a bad thing that one factions ship type is not equal to the same ship type of another faction. So Rix Hvy Scouts beat other heavy scouts (or are alleged to at similar tech levels). Is that a reason to Nerf them?
I think what Noir is saying, is YES if that imbalance is so large it tilts games, if NOT, leave it alone.
I suppose you could 'balance' factions by making all ships of 'equal' level balanced in power but just 'different'.
Or you could balance things by other differences. The risk here is you end up with different factions always going one tech path i.e. the optimal tech path for that faction. But there are other ways to do that matching each ship type, ship for ship.
DOG PROPERTY LAWS:
2. If it's in my mouth, it's mine.
[unless it tastes bad, then it is yours.]
For Rix only? That is a possibility. There is a planned SY change that may have a similar requirement for Rix only, so it could create a new Rix theme for certain tech.Pook wrote:QUOTE (Pook @ Jul 14 2006, 01:29 AM) Noir is this extra base idea for Rix only?
The reason I ask, is that I don't believe that we need to slow down anyone else getting to heavy scouts. Even if other factions "rush" them... they simply don't provide the offensive threat that the rix mini-gs does. In any case, we certainly don't need to slow down bios, belters, etc.
Part of the issue I believe is similar to the old nan turret. Everyone always said "Why take a nan gunner when you can take 2 nans?" Well the rix hvy scout is the same way - why take a gunner when you can give him his own scout with the same firepower. Put simply, other heavy scouts get their "firepowah" at the cost of an extra player to man the gun. Rix has no such limitation.
Another issue is the difference between missiles and guns. The pilot mounted mini-ac is overcompensation for the lack of missiles... missiles that very often miss and do no damage. Think lancer vs hunter/killer - which is generally considered more lethal?
Opinions vary on whether a manned Hvy Scout Mini-AC turret is more effective that 2 Hvy Scouts with no turrets. We talked about this at some length on TS last night and part of the conclusion was that it seems to depend on situational context (no surprise there I guess). While using 2 Hvy Scouts instead of 1 turreted Hvy Scout gives you more armor/shields, ammo, missiles, etc. it also makes you 2 seperate targets instead of 1 and does not tie up 2 pilots (sorta like Gunship syndrome) allowing them to reprioritize. On the other hand, a turreted Hvy Scout has a very effective surprise factor and improves the 2 on 1 concentration of fire. It was also noted that a noob/voob who can't fly well can be more effective as a gunner. With respect to Rix, opinions were no different, sometimes it was more effective for it to have a gunner, sometimes it was not.
As far as the effectiveness over missiles, this too varies and largely depends on the pilot's ability to aim and maneuver with Rix's odd flight model. Also, Dual Dumb/Seeker 3s should not be underestimated.
DN is deliberately about making factions different, not only in global values, but in individual ship abilities as well. In fact, I would say DN is primarily about comparing apples vs. oranges. Most same class ships are deliberately made to be different, so depending on the situational context, some of those ships are better than others. Some have better head to head performance; some are better at defense, etc., etc. The bottom line for DN is EXACTLY how a ships overall performance effects the bottom line of the faction’s win ratio. To use the apple vs. oranges analogy again, DN is less about how they individually taste and more about how they taste in say… a salad.Tigereye wrote:QUOTE (Tigereye @ Jul 14 2006, 02:25 AM) A team can execute a tactic right off the bat that has no bearing on a ship's effectiveness.
For example: A commander can rush bombers immediately after launch, and quickly bomb and win the game. If this worked a majority of the time the statistics would show that rushing heavy bombers was a good tactic... or if it didn't work a majority of the time (like rushing heavy scouts) it would show that this tactic was not a good one.
Neither of those outcomes have any bearing on how powerful (or not powerful) that bomber is (or it's ABs).
The reason why I posted this thread in the first place is because of the inconsistencies in ship effectiveness. I'll list them here:Rixian weapons have a factionwide perk. Yes this one is obvious, and is one drop in the bucket.Rixian hvy scouts have a mini-AC instead of a gattling gun. Yes this one is obvious too.Rixian hvy scouts have a small/thin hitbox making them harder to hit. Another drop in the bucket (but so is GT so it's not a big one)Rixian hvy scouts have a full AC turret making them stronger than opposing hvy scoutsEnemy hvy scouts have missiles giving them a perceived "edge" on rix hvy scouts... however their missiles don't always hit, and any competent pilot can dodge most missiles making them almost ineffectiveRixian hvy scouts stronger weapon (withfaction-perked strength) hits with the pilot's accuracy and does not rely on the random number generator employed by chaff to counter missiles (or dodging). This higher percentage of (STRONG) gun hits outweighs the strength lost due to lack of missiles.For these reasons, I believe Rixian Hvy Scouts to be stronger than other factions' Hvy Scouts. I also believe that if two equally skilled pilots were to face off with all combinations of Hvy Scouts, the Rixian one will have a statistically higher rate of combat wins. Not game wins, combat wins.
*NOTE* To repeat my above point, the statistics I am talking about are comparing ship effectiveness to ship effectiveness. I am *NOT* talking about comparing ship effectiveness against strategic effectiveness, trashtalking effectiveness, or the "Posters On" graphics setting. You can't compare apples to oranges, so I won't try.
--TE
I have already covered most of your ship comparison point list in my points to Pook above, however, you are incorrect in that Rix does NOT have a full AC turret, only a Mini-AC turret (only the Giga Lxy Scout has a full AC turret). Honestly, I'll take a Belters Hvy Scout (armor, manuvering, boosters) or a Dreg Hvy Scout (speed, missile perks) over a Rix Hvy Scout for almost every situation in the game, even in most heads up battles. Hell, I think a Rix Hvy Scout [SR] has more overall effectiveness for your team than non-[SR]s.
I think you may have missed the point completely. I want to limit Hvy Scout rushes (Rix maybe more so than others) because they are NOT powerful enough for long enough given the overall effectiveness of other tech paths. Again, I would be trying to PROMOTE the current strength of Hvy Scouts by requiring them to have a more supportive tech path therefore making them potentially more effective while also removing the foolish and NOT as effective rush strategy. You say win ratio has no bearing on the effectiveness of a ship, but since rushing Rix Hvy Scouts tends to result in a loss, I think you are failing to see the forest through trees. Primary consideration for all balance in DN is and always will be faction win ratios, which is the very point of its overall game balance.Tigereye wrote:QUOTE (Tigereye @ Jul 14 2006, 02:28 AM) PS:
That's all well and good, and should work well at countering the strategic effectiveness of the Hvy Scout Rush. This will not change the strength of the hvy scouts.
--TE
Again, if Rix Hvy Scouts ever do require a specific nerf, I'd likely limit their ammo capacity, since they already have a higher cargo capacity. As I have said earlier, I have no plans to give them Combat Drones because it would make them too similar to the Rix SF loadout (Prox, Probes, etc.), which already does it better. Again, I strive to make factions as different as possible.
QUOTE DN is less about how they individually taste and more about how they taste in say… a salad.[/quote]
You heard it here first:
DN is all about tossing Noir's salad.
/mrgreen.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="mrgreen.gif" /> /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":biggrin:" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /> /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> /mellow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":mellow:" border="0" alt="mellow.gif" /> /huh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":huh:" border="0" alt="huh.gif" /> /unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":unsure:" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" /> /sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":sad:" border="0" alt="sad.gif" /> /doh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":doh:" border="0" alt="doh.gif" />
You heard it here first:
DN is all about tossing Noir's salad.
/mrgreen.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="mrgreen.gif" /> /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":biggrin:" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /> /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> /mellow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":mellow:" border="0" alt="mellow.gif" /> /huh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":huh:" border="0" alt="huh.gif" /> /unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":unsure:" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" /> /sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":sad:" border="0" alt="sad.gif" /> /doh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":doh:" border="0" alt="doh.gif" />
Last edited by Pook on Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't forget salad WITH cheese!Pook wrote:QUOTE (Pook @ Jul 14 2006, 05:03 PM) You heard it here first:
DN is all about tossing Noir's salad.
/mrgreen.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="mrgreen.gif" /> /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":biggrin:" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /> /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> /mellow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":mellow:" border="0" alt="mellow.gif" /> /huh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":huh:" border="0" alt="huh.gif" /> /unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":unsure:" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" /> /sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":sad:" border="0" alt="sad.gif" /> /doh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":doh:" border="0" alt="doh.gif" />
/mrgreen.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="mrgreen.gif" />
Played a game today VS GT sup. GT's missile blew our Hvy Scouts apart. Then they got Stangs and REALLY killed us.
I tihnk that HVy scouts are fine, except for the insane ammo clip, and that it just takes a team of reasonable intelligence to combat them.
I tihnk that HVy scouts are fine, except for the insane ammo clip, and that it just takes a team of reasonable intelligence to combat them.
FIZ wrote:QUOTE (FIZ @ Feb 28 2011, 04:56 PM) After Slap I use Voltaire for light reading.
QUOTE [20:13] <DasSmiter> I like to think that one day he logged on and accidentally clicked his way to the EoR forumCronoDroid wrote:QUOTE (CronoDroid @ Jan 23 2009, 07:46 PM) If you're going to go GT, go Exp, unless you're Gooey. But Gooey is nuts.
[20:13] <DasSmiter> And his heart exploded in a cloud of fury[/quote]
tbh I don't know why people ever bother to post suggestions on these DN forums - Noir doesn't seem to take a blind bit of notice and does whatever he wants to. /ninja.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":ninja:" border="0" alt="ninja.gif" /> *runs away*
spideycw - 'This is because Grav is a huge whining bitch. But we all knew that already' Dec 19 2010, 07:36 PM
If you were on TS last night (Or ever, for that matter) you would know thats not true.Gandalf2 wrote:QUOTE (Gandalf2 @ Jul 14 2006, 03:23 PM) tbh I don't know why people ever bother to post suggestions on these DN forums - Noir doesn't seem to take a blind bit of notice and does whatever he wants to. /ninja.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":ninja:" border="0" alt="ninja.gif" /> *runs away*
TB
[18:48] <Imago> dont take me seriouslyspideycw wrote:QUOTE (spideycw @ Nov 28 2008, 02:50 PM) All the retards are contained in one squad mostly (System X)