If Noir was so inclined as to change the hvy scout (which I don't believe that he is) there are really only two ways to do it that fit within "theme": Twin gats for pilot, OR let it drop combat pods - one per slot.
As usual, the bear is pretty much right. Of the two, I'd prefer to see the pods. If Sf's can drop probes/prox, why not c. pods on scouts?
Also, possible 3rd option: all heavies get free SR ability.
Last edited by Adaven on Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I have gone through the server logs on several occasions looking for how often rushing Hvy Scouts (and in particular Rix) is successful. Sorry guys, but yet again it is statistically a bad move for ALL factions. Given how often they are rushed for Rix, the secondary evidence is in Rix's win ratio whose average hovers near 50%. This is typically because time and money is wasted on what is a short term advantage, which if not COMPLETELY capitalized on, is lost once the opposition gets another tech path’s second or third level. So unfortunately, as with Vanguards, the facts and stats don’t back up the complaints.
Several things must be taken into account with Rix/TF Hvy Scout load outs. Since the dual Gat theme is already used by TF Scouts, the Rix’s Hvy Scout was given a pilot Mini-AC due to its lack of medium range weapons (missiles) and following the theme seen in Rix’s Gunship (pilot full AC). Also note that Rix SFs already provide for using probes, mines, combat drones and extended range Snipers. TF’s Hvy Scout was not given a pilot Mini-AC because it already has the extra PE Gat theme (which are accurate and have extended range), dual nans and a Lt Booster that make up for its lack of medium range weapons (missiles). The point, as someone noted, was to purposely make the Rix/TF Hvy Scout and “extra gun” themes different and have those differences hinge upon their already unique faction abilities.
That said, the ammo nerf for Rix Hvy Scouts has been previously discussed, but not implemented due to the lack of win ratio performance. I have mentioned several times that I am considering the idea of having Hvy Scouts also require a spec rock tech base to slow down these typically strategically foolish rushes as well as promote the acquisition of the higher level tech that actually makes them worth while.
Last edited by Noir on Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Noir wrote:QUOTE (Noir @ Jul 13 2006, 09:49 PM) I have mentioned several times that I am considering the idea of having Hvy Scouts also require a spec rock tech base to slow down these typically strategically foolish rushes as well as promote the acquisition of the higher level tech that actually makes them worth while.
You mean like a Recon Base? /mrgreen.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="mrgreen.gif" />
I don't like that idea. That's how hvy scouts were originally set up - you had to buy the recon to get them. Nobody liked it, and everyone complained. Oh, and several kittens died too. And a baby seal.
I don't think analyzing the win/loss ratio for a poor strategy is a proper line of reasoning. Lots of people rushed rix hvy scouts in lieu of econ/expansion, and paid the price for it. I think a much more accurate analysis is to compare mid/late game situations in which rix hvy scouts have been deployed, vs mid/late game situations in which hvy scouts from other factions have been deployed.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure a simple win/loss statistical analysis will suffice. Unfortunately, the only thing I can provide is anecdotal evidence.
1) Today....guitar vs mad acc. Guitar went rix hvy scouts (with expansion and econ). The result: His team held back adv exp belters with nothing more than garr tech. He got a home exp, eventually. But the whole reason why Belters couldn't finish was that every rix hvy scout was a disproportionately large threat. In the presense of hvy int nans, they killed miners, constructors at will. If he were Bios, Giga, or even Dreg, I'm not sure the guitar's team would have had as much success.
2) Yesterday(?) guitar vs abom. Guitar went rix, and ended up losing his sup to adv tf sup. However, he bought rix hvy scouts. Again, with nothing but garr tech, he beat back adv tf sup and eventually won the game. Again, if he were any other faction, I doubt hvy scouts would have been so successful (hvy scouts sporting basic tech no less).
Last edited by Clay_Pigeon on Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me." -2 Cor 12:9 "Never know how long I've waited, anticipated your smile pressed against mine." -Running
I don't think that was me. I haven't commed a TF adv sup game in months probably. There was a game yesterday I think, Guitar rushed heavy scouts against me. I went [giga?] gunships, I believe. We bombed 1 or 2 of his tps, while I had no miners, but I kept cash for 75 percent of a miner, and bought tp1. Our gunship + bbr run w/nans was following a pod train of 8 pods or something, to Guitar's Starbase, while I was trying to setup a tp1 drop uneyed midlow/midhigh/high - When the server crashed.
Bring your mini ac, violin! I got my skycap! I can dance all day! /blink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":o" border="0" alt="blink.gif" />
The reason I ask, is that I don't believe that we need to slow down anyone else getting to heavy scouts. Even if other factions "rush" them... they simply don't provide the offensive threat that the rix mini-gs does. In any case, we certainly don't need to slow down bios, belters, etc.
Part of the issue I believe is similar to the old nan turret. Everyone always said "Why take a nan gunner when you can take 2 nans?" Well the rix hvy scout is the same way - why take a gunner when you can give him his own scout with the same firepower. Put simply, other heavy scouts get their "firepowah" at the cost of an extra player to man the gun. Rix has no such limitation.
Another issue is the difference between missiles and guns. The pilot mounted mini-ac is overcompensation for the lack of missiles... missiles that very often miss and do no damage. Think lancer vs hunter/killer - which is generally considered more lethal?
Abom was giga, and it was on tuesday night.
It's good to note, that in the game with Abom, we had no counter to the GS. The pods that were flying back had all been owned while attacking en masse, and been completely destryoed. I never thought I would see a half dozen hvy scouts just go poof so fast.
Today's game vs Belt's exp, was interesting to say the least. I honestly think that the only reason we held you back for so long with the scouts was that we had range on you, and more manuverability. By the time the hvy ints had come up, I'd gotten the exp up with ship accel and pw range/damage. The GA's in conjucntion with the perks of Rix allowed us to stay farther outside and turn inside of you when you boosted in.
Rix Hvy Scouts can not be used alone simply as gar tech. Once an enemy gets a tech base up, your pretty much screwed as they can advance, and your simply stuck without hope of moving forward. I never leave the Hvy Scout alone as a single tech, and I always up it to the max. Playing vs Belts is awesome for Rix in my oppinon, especially with Hvy Scouts, as you can get SS2 and SS3 without ever worrying about the enemy picking it up.
Properly played, Rix Hvy Scouts showed be used with Sup, or if you go Hvy Scouts and GS (Psych's favorite) then you get a tac as well, and upgrade the pods.
To counter Rix, you need a faction that has missiles. I think that Dreg would probably be the best bet, playing full sup as you can use the SS2 which is a neccesary req for Hvy's to be effective, and they insane missile damage you get with Dreg.
But that's my oppinion. I've been playing with different rix strats alot, and they all revolve around a combination of these: Enh Carrier, SR Scouts, Hvy Scouts, Full Sup, GS/Forward Op, Enh Con Rip Scout Push.
The thing is though i'm not ruining my economy or expsansion by buying Hvy. I don't play with stupid money settings, and I don't get them off the bat. Like any other faction, exspansion and minning is the key, and minning disruption is handled well by Rix SR scouts. THough i'm seeing more and more that people are hunting my SR's and letting miners die instead, learning the wrong lesson from past performance.
#edit
adding in to what pook says, I'm not in agreement on the turret. The turret is well worth the extra player, as I would rather have 1 scout with a gunner being chased by 2/3 ints and being shot at, rather then 2 scouts being overwhelmed by those same 2/3 ints. I know that if Noir takes a gunner, and goes probing into an enemy sector, the enemy pilots will come out and chase him, and Noir's gunner will have a nice turkey shoot as they all try and boost after him.
Last edited by guitarism on Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
FIZ wrote:QUOTE (FIZ @ Feb 28 2011, 04:56 PM) After Slap I use Voltaire for light reading.
CronoDroid wrote:QUOTE (CronoDroid @ Jan 23 2009, 07:46 PM) If you're going to go GT, go Exp, unless you're Gooey. But Gooey is nuts.
QUOTE [20:13] <DasSmiter> I like to think that one day he logged on and accidentally clicked his way to the EoR forum
[20:13] <DasSmiter> And his heart exploded in a cloud of fury[/quote]
Noir wrote:QUOTE (Noir @ Jul 13 2006, 10:49 PM) I have gone through the server logs on several occasions looking for how often rushing Hvy Scouts (and in particular Rix) is successful. Sorry guys, but yet again it is statistically a bad move for ALL factions.
Definitely true - but that does not address what this thread is talking about. We were talking about Hvy Scouts themselves, not the rushing tactic.
As Pigeon says, it's apples and oranges. You can't use statistics of strategic effectiveness to judge a ship's combat effectiveness.
The combat pods are used to replace missiles on Rix SFs. I vote they be given to Hvy scouts to replace their missiles too in lieu of their mini-AC. Give them a reg-gatt.
--TE
Last edited by Tigereye on Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Allegiance community currently hates their sysadmin because he is doing: [Too Much] [____________|] [Too Little]
Current reason: Removing the PayPal contribute page. Send Bitcoin instead: 1EccFi98tR5S9BYLuB61sFfxKqqgSKK8Yz. This scale updates regularly.
Tigereye wrote:QUOTE (Tigereye @ Jul 13 2006, 11:45 PM) The combat pods are used to replace missiles on Rix SFs. I vote they be given to Hvy scouts to replace their missiles too in lieu of their mini-AC. Give them a reg-gatt.
When you consider how much of a nerf that is, then you begin to relize how powerfull they are in their current state.
-->>Elitism<<--
I'm not Hamlet. I don't take part any more. My words have nothing to tell me anymore.
