I'll allow myself to repost from thread about XRMs:
IMO before we start nerfing figbees and perking XRMs we should totally rethink those two techs. Right now they have very similar use, XRM hvy bbrs or fighter bombers are two choices to deliver anti base payload using TP2. Before, XRMs were used much more often than FBs, now it's other way around and I strongly belive that playing with different stats (damage, range etc) can lead only to change of balance in favor of XRMs again. Whats the point of using XRMs if FBs are better? What wiil be reasons to use FBs if they are nerfed and XRMs perked?
We should focus on figuring out how to make both XRMs and FBs have significantly DIFFERENT use, so they don't exclude each other like it is right now - I never seen both researched, anyone did? for sure it don't have much sense. Maybe XRMs should be significantly perked vs station shields so it's reasonable to use them vs. teams going EXP with station shields GA? Maybe lower their damage but increase range even more so XRMs could be used efectively without TP2 but could reach targets just after you enter sector? Give FBs some kind of new missile, capable to damage stations but not very heavy, so theres reason to use FB as multirole heavy fighter? These are just few very rough ideas.
Most drastic change I belive we could consider would be moving XRMs to some other techpath. I was thinking about EXP - most ppl agree that HTTs are most difficult to use end game tech, giving EXP team ability to use hvy bbrs with XRMs would slightly help int-bombing maybe making ending game with EXP easier. But I also see XRMs in TAC, with very high signature so you spot them 3k away or even further and have to boost to kill sbs (however I belive Tac game ending is ok atm).
Fighter-Bombers.
XRM missiles could be under SY, but then they should be merged with XRM cruise (heck, just use cruise instead, mountable on heavy bombers with a small rack).
Another possibility to follow up on Koczis would be to have XRM be under starbase, so a sup is not needed. That would be interesting actually.
I'd also separate TP1 and TP2 to separate items (with TP1 being required for TP2 research). That way belters for instance can keep TP 1 but lose TP2. TP 1 could be half the price of TP2 to use, so it would still have a use when you've researched up to TP2.
***
Figbees are a good top endgame for sup, they don't really need XRM as well. It could be a starbase or low lvl-SY based endgame tech.
Another possibility to follow up on Koczis would be to have XRM be under starbase, so a sup is not needed. That would be interesting actually.
I'd also separate TP1 and TP2 to separate items (with TP1 being required for TP2 research). That way belters for instance can keep TP 1 but lose TP2. TP 1 could be half the price of TP2 to use, so it would still have a use when you've researched up to TP2.
***
Figbees are a good top endgame for sup, they don't really need XRM as well. It could be a starbase or low lvl-SY based endgame tech.
<bp|> Maybe when I grow up I can be a troll like PsycH
<bp|> or an obsessive compulsive paladin of law like Adept
With how I personally envision it, fighter bombers will be slightly less reliable vs exp because it'll be fairly easy to shoot them down with ints of doom, but the runs and the tech itself will be quite a bit cheaper. However, because of how much more expensive the XRM heavy bbrs will be (in theory) against Tac you won't (in theory) have the money to research all the way to heavy bbrs and XRM2. Instead, you'll use the cheaper (if less effective) figbees.Koczis wrote:QUOTE (Koczis @ Jun 11 2009, 02:57 AM) I'll allow myself to repost from thread about XRMs:
IMO before we start nerfing figbees and perking XRMs we should totally rethink those two techs. Right now they have very similar use, XRM hvy bbrs or fighter bombers are two choices to deliver anti base payload using TP2. Before, XRMs were used much more often than FBs, now it's other way around and I strongly belive that playing with different stats (damage, range etc) can lead only to change of balance in favor of XRMs again. Whats the point of using XRMs if FBs are better? What wiil be reasons to use FBs if they are nerfed and XRMs perked?
Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
This thread is kinda tl;dr, so I'm going to just dump my Figbee idea here and hope it isn't redundant. I'm not claiming it's a good idea, and I'm not even sure figbees really need to be changed at all, but it's been bouncing around in my head so I thought I'd post it.
Nerfs:
Increase length from 111% of fighter to 120%-125% (still much smaller than a bomber)
Remove ability to carry SRM AB
Reduce turn rate from 60 dps (fighter) to 50 dps (scout).
Possibly reduce thrust/increase mass - accel seems low enough already, but not sure.
Perks:
Increase speed from 70 mps to 100 mps
Possibly increase fuel from 4 to... 5? More?
Possibly increase hull from 450 to 475-500, more for flavor purposes than anything, but also so that maybe someone would ever be able to fire a third missile.
Increase missile rack from 25 (5 dumbs) to 30 (6 dumbs), and access to QL missiles.
Replacement for SRM AB:
This is the nerf that, along with size increase, makes up for all the perks. Let's call it SRT AB.
Launch V of 5, Accel of 6, Lifetime of 8. Range at rest is 192 compared to 1000 for SRM AB. Range at, for example, 140 mps is just over 1300. I haven't tested it, but I'm not sure even a Dreg figbee could get up to 140 despite the perks. Range at 100 mps is 992.
Cargo size is same as SRM AB, so it's 2 to a rack instead of 1. Cut the mass in half or more.
Damage should be half of SRM AB with tech levels that benefit from SRM AB research.
Reload time should be a bit longer.
The point is that while the first missile would be fired at a similar range to SRM AB, the second would have to be delivered point blank. This means either you have to slow down, or you risk either missing the target or ramming it and podding yourself. If you slow down too much, you could still miss, though this result should be rare. If the missile is delivered at a lower speed, then it will be moving very slowly, and be much easier to shoot down. Reducing the missile hitpoints from 40 to 20 or less might be a good idea, but I'm pretty sure you could just QF the thing and not bother trying to shoot it. Since you have to shoot 4 SRT AB to get the same result of shooting 2 SRM AB's, this means no single figbee is likely to do that much damage before being shot down. Also, since you'd have 10-12 seconds between firing the second missile and the third, you might consider flying away from the target and circling back to fire at a decent speed, which I think is a nice gameplay addition. Assuming you could possibly live that long.
The overall idea is to turn the figbee into a viable dogfighter with an emphasis on forward firepower, especially against less maneuverable targets - hence the upgraded missile rack. It keeps the Mini-AC turret because while it's not the best choice for a TP2 run I think it's otherwise underrated. The current figbee is just too slow to be useful for anything but bombing. This version could make quick work of a corvette on the way to its target, and might even be able to handle a noob fig or int - without the turret. With the turret, it should be a force to be reckoned with. Even so, I don't think it would be a vastly better TP2 bomber.
Obviously alternate solutions would be found for TF and Rix.
Nerfs:
Increase length from 111% of fighter to 120%-125% (still much smaller than a bomber)
Remove ability to carry SRM AB
Reduce turn rate from 60 dps (fighter) to 50 dps (scout).
Possibly reduce thrust/increase mass - accel seems low enough already, but not sure.
Perks:
Increase speed from 70 mps to 100 mps
Possibly increase fuel from 4 to... 5? More?
Possibly increase hull from 450 to 475-500, more for flavor purposes than anything, but also so that maybe someone would ever be able to fire a third missile.
Increase missile rack from 25 (5 dumbs) to 30 (6 dumbs), and access to QL missiles.
Replacement for SRM AB:
This is the nerf that, along with size increase, makes up for all the perks. Let's call it SRT AB.
Launch V of 5, Accel of 6, Lifetime of 8. Range at rest is 192 compared to 1000 for SRM AB. Range at, for example, 140 mps is just over 1300. I haven't tested it, but I'm not sure even a Dreg figbee could get up to 140 despite the perks. Range at 100 mps is 992.
Cargo size is same as SRM AB, so it's 2 to a rack instead of 1. Cut the mass in half or more.
Damage should be half of SRM AB with tech levels that benefit from SRM AB research.
Reload time should be a bit longer.
The point is that while the first missile would be fired at a similar range to SRM AB, the second would have to be delivered point blank. This means either you have to slow down, or you risk either missing the target or ramming it and podding yourself. If you slow down too much, you could still miss, though this result should be rare. If the missile is delivered at a lower speed, then it will be moving very slowly, and be much easier to shoot down. Reducing the missile hitpoints from 40 to 20 or less might be a good idea, but I'm pretty sure you could just QF the thing and not bother trying to shoot it. Since you have to shoot 4 SRT AB to get the same result of shooting 2 SRM AB's, this means no single figbee is likely to do that much damage before being shot down. Also, since you'd have 10-12 seconds between firing the second missile and the third, you might consider flying away from the target and circling back to fire at a decent speed, which I think is a nice gameplay addition. Assuming you could possibly live that long.
The overall idea is to turn the figbee into a viable dogfighter with an emphasis on forward firepower, especially against less maneuverable targets - hence the upgraded missile rack. It keeps the Mini-AC turret because while it's not the best choice for a TP2 run I think it's otherwise underrated. The current figbee is just too slow to be useful for anything but bombing. This version could make quick work of a corvette on the way to its target, and might even be able to handle a noob fig or int - without the turret. With the turret, it should be a force to be reckoned with. Even so, I don't think it would be a vastly better TP2 bomber.
Obviously alternate solutions would be found for TF and Rix.
Last edited by Compellor on Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Any job worth doing with a laser is worth doing with many, many lasers. -Khrima
Beyond a shadow of a doubt if you don't watch them like a hawk they will stack their collective balls off - MrChaos on Alleg players
Beyond a shadow of a doubt if you don't watch them like a hawk they will stack their collective balls off - MrChaos on Alleg players
probe better and either rush them or camp the aleph with prox when you eye them.
Better yet, if you can, have a scout sit in the enemy sector uneyed if you are at such a risk of a fig bomber attack.
Might be a long-shot, but try having a tower or two standing by docked at the critical base, and deploy them between the base and the TP2 drop if they do it that way.
Better yet, if you can, have a scout sit in the enemy sector uneyed if you are at such a risk of a fig bomber attack.
Might be a long-shot, but try having a tower or two standing by docked at the critical base, and deploy them between the base and the TP2 drop if they do it that way.
Last edited by Weylin on Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rather wicked idea that came to my mind today is to remove adv figs ability to mount galv and make FBs capable to use it, remove their ability to carry SRM AB. That way FBs and hvy bbrs XRMs will have different use, FBs would be step towards game ending tech. Adv fighters would be downgraded to simply better defense and offense ship. Of course this change would need more tweaking in SUP, for example lower cost of ship research.
why not just get rid of FBs then and leave adv figs as they are (no one is complaining about them)? It basically achieves the same thing?Koczis wrote:QUOTE (Koczis @ Jun 12 2009, 06:04 PM) Rather wicked idea that came to my mind today is to remove adv figs ability to mount galv and make FBs capable to use it, remove their ability to carry SRM AB. That way FBs and hvy bbrs XRMs will have different use, FBs would be step towards game ending tech. Adv fighters would be downgraded to simply better defense and offense ship. Of course this change would need more tweaking in SUP, for example lower cost of ship research.
