Tf Hvy Scouts and their guns

RoboTel · Post by **RoboTel** » Mon May 25, 2009 3:53 am

Consider it a penalty of their tremendous nan-ability that they already have, it is awkward to use that and a weapon. They are still well off because of the three gun slots.

Post by **zombywoof** » Mon May 25, 2009 4:05 am

ctrl-1. Dismounts. Easy enough.

sambasti · Post by **sambasti** » Mon May 25, 2009 4:13 am

Bob the Hobo, I know you love TF, but this might be taking it a bit far.

While I do agree that it is annoying, very annoying, you just have to use a prox and dismount. It's the same problem as the Belters Enh FigNan, you need to dismount the nan before you can properly use the fig.

Double Nans already make the above average TF Bombers lethal weapons. If you had triple nans, you could bomb anything...

BobtheHobo · Post by **BobtheHobo** » Mon May 25, 2009 4:54 am

I disagree with your analysis of the effect of 3 nans on TF bomb runs. I really do not think it would make them that much better.

Regardless, surely something can be done to make TF Hvy scouts not hard to use? We could reduce them to two gunmounts and give them a better turret or maybe some other perk to compensate?

As they are I almost prefer keeping Adv Scouts instead of getting Hvy Scouts as TF.

Adaven · Post by **Adaven** » Mon May 25, 2009 5:35 am

The problem with firing your gatt as well juckto is that TF gatt's also use energy. Not a lot, but enough to make a difference on a mid-long bomb run.

Post by **zombywoof** » Mon May 25, 2009 8:51 am

sambasti wrote:QUOTE (sambasti @ May 24 2009, 09:13 PM) Bob the Hobo, I know you love TF, but this might be taking it a bit far.

While I do agree that it is annoying, very annoying, you just have to use a prox and dismount. It's the same problem as the Belters Enh FigNan, you need to dismount the nan before you can properly use the fig.

Double Nans already make the above average TF Bombers lethal weapons. If you had triple nans, you could bomb anything...

Bob The Hobo wrote:QUOTE (Bob The Hobo @ May 24 2009, 09:54 PM) I disagree with your analysis of the effect of 3 nans on TF bomb runs. I really do not think it would make them that much better.

Regardless, surely something can be done to make TF Hvy scouts not hard to use? We could reduce them to two gunmounts and give them a better turret or maybe some other perk to compensate?

As they are I almost prefer keeping Adv Scouts instead of getting Hvy Scouts as TF.

(we need a smilie of someone grumbling to himself as he does something)

I guess it's time to go earn my pay...

*ahem*
As we all know, you're going to have about as many ships attacking a bomber as nanning it. Teams are even, the whole team is on the run and the whole enemy team is defending (SHUT UP.)

Right, so without further ado... numbers!

Nan2 does -30 damage per shot, 4 shots per second, -120 dps with a multiplier of *1 on medium hull. So... -120 hp/s damage from a regular scout with no kb.
Mini3 does 6.25 damage per shot, 12 shots per second, 76 dps, with a multiplier of *.75 on medium hull. So... 171 hp/s damage from a mini3 hvy int with no kb.
BTW, a mini3 int is 114 hp/s, so you can't spike a bbr with mini3 ints/lt ints unless you have more ints spiking than nans repairing. With pw damage 1, though, this is no longer true as a mini3 int is doing 121 hp/s, and with pw damage 2 you're doing 133 hp/s. "Tac is slightly better at bombing, yay!"

Anyways, the practical upshot of this is that with 2 nan2 you're already outdamaging the mini3 heavy int. -240 hp/s versus pw damage 2 mini3 heavy int (206.91) leaves the nan2 pretty significantly in the lead. Against TF, STFN!

Fighters are a little more tough to calculate with, but with proper timing it doesn't matter how much nannage you've got. A bomber has 800hp and medium shield (300-400 hp). A DF 3 does 150 damage with a *1 multiplier against both med shield and hull, so if 8 df (without any GA or KB) hit the bbr at the same time, it pops.

We can get into more specifics with how 3 gat 3 is 150 * .75 vs bbrs, or 112.5 hp/s so not enough to outdamage nan2 by themselves, but spiking a bbr is supposed to be a well coordinated volley of dumbfires anyways. Properly spiked with DF3, the nannage doesn't matter at all.

SFS are in the same boat, but what the hell, right? Live a little!
Hunt 3 does 144 with 1x vs medium shield and hull, so 9 missiles this time.
Killer 2 is significantly better (like crazy better). Not only does it do 150 instead of 144, but it has 3x times medium shield and 1.6x times medium hull. Bomber's shields are gone by one killer 2, and I don't know how the excess damage works. Killer 2 is doing 450 damage to a 400 hp shield, but I don't think the 50 damage is what splashes over... maybe 50/3*1.6? I'll just pretend like none of it splashes over, and we'll have an overestimate. Anyways, four killer 2 takes out 800 hp bbrs, so five total killer 2 will always spike a bbr, no matter how much nannage is on it assuming you spike it properly (i.e. all four killers hitting at the same time).

I'm going to ignore the stupid sniper rifles because blargh to that. Just fire five missiles at it, surely you can manage that, right chumps? And that's assuming they have med3 up. It actually takes 3 1/3 killer2 to down the hull, so you have a fair amount of wiggle room on that one.

Ironically, this implies that the *best* techpath vs bombing is tac and the *worst* is expansion.

Anyways, it looks like the third nan wouldn't make much of a difference from a numbers standpoint. Sup and Tac still spike the bbr just as effectively (because, again, your missiles are all supposed to hit at the same time, but even if they didn't you're likely to have more than 8 figs on D... hopefully) and Exp still DOESN'T spike the bbr.

Here are rough calcs with nan1: i think (THINK, I'm too tired to double check) that nan1 is -22.1. So... one nan1 would be -88.4/s, two would be 176.8, enough to stop no pwdamage mini3 but not enough to stop pw1 or 2 mini3.

THERE! Numbers. Now ima go back to sleep... *grumbles*

xnanning: 3 mini3 heavy ints: 76*3 = 228 hp/s.
1 Nan 2: 120 hp/s
2 Nan 2: 240 hp/s
3 Nan 2: 360 hp/s
Technically with equal accuracy 2nan2 beats 3 mini3. So according to the numbers (which don't represent everything, of course) the third nan would have little to no efect on bomb runs.

I can look at capships, miners, etc. if you like, but I doubt there will be anything new.

Koln · Post by **Koln** » Mon May 25, 2009 9:13 am

sambasti wrote:QUOTE (sambasti @ May 25 2009, 06:13 AM) While I do agree that it is annoying, very annoying, you just have to use a prox and dismount. It's the same problem as the Belters Enh FigNan, you need to dismount the nan before you can properly use the fig.

I was just about to say that

. What you are proposing, Bob, it's like if we wanted the belt fig to have a perma nan slot, so you don't have to dismount your gat while using the nan, or something like that. You just unmount it, it isnt a problem.

Also, you could not take the gat while naning a TF bbr run and increase the freaking good acceleration you have in your scout, which makes you harder to hit. If you take it to deprobe in the way, it's same thing as other scouts: you have to unmount your gat to nan (except with GT) and nobody complains about that

.