Can we make XRM missiles useful again?

[Valiance]

QUOTE (madpeople @ May 7 2009, 08:30 AM) I said arming time

sorry. reading fail =[

[madpeople]

QUOTE (Ramaglor @ May 7 2009, 06:06 PM) Also madp, having xrm be shoot downable has the side affect of bombers dieing at a lower rate, which in turn means that more reach srm range. It would be in no way equivalent to shooting down sy missiles, because there would be many many more missiles flying.

It's why I said make them take a long time to arm. but this response is continued with my next below...

QUOTE (Adept @ May 7 2009, 06:37 PM) Maybe this needs to be moved to another topic?

I've never liked the way dis eats away capships. There is an anti cap torpedo in SY, but I doubt it's ever used. It should probably be in sup instead. It would be pretty neat if sup's best way to take out caps would be an anti cap torpedo fired from bombers or figbees. Maybe a version in basic sup, and an upgrade in adv sup, so that an exp team who has bombers could reasonably buy a sup and get the torps too. HTT's can already (theoretically) hurt caps with the EMP missiles. It could be nifty if they were allowed to mount the torpedo as well.

Do with it what you will. it's just an idea that I was giving as an example of an idea. Not all ideas are good, some are, some aren't. You need to explore the reasons for an idea as to why it would be good. Often it's best to see what the situation is now, what you want it to be, and think what would achieve that; rather than coming up with random ideas and trying to bend them to make some form of difference which makes things better.
I personally am thinking we should hold off on changing the main techs stuff vs SY until we've figured out what we're doing with SY - wait for it to be changed and then change (or don't change as necesarry) the techs to suit it. I personally have never had a problem with the idea of using galvs on capships, it keeps the attacker in one place so you can shoot them easily - missiles are harder to shoot down.

[CronoDroid]

The ideas posted in this thread so far have been overly complex and non-sensical. There is no reason to make things needlessly complicated by changing tech trees, changing the way TP2 works, changing scouts, making dedicated TP2 scouts, making dedicated XRM bombers, making XRM some hidden tech in the secret Suckpremacy Base or any of the other @#(! you people are talking about.

The main issue with XRM/TP2 in the past has been DAMAGE. A 5K run is plenty expensive, which is ten bombers or anywhere from one to two techs but back then it was GG if the bombers managed to rip in. Now our problem is that XRM is crap and useless (sorta like your posts in this forum, but I won't go there) so we need to perk it. But we don't want to perk it too much so it's uber again.

Back in the day when I played and commanded heaps (and dropped more TP2s than the TP2 poop scout) I saw many a TP2/XRM run. I would say the current damage (half of what it used to be) is perfect, and the cost and difficulty of setting up TP2 outweighs the benefit of having a run that is quite a beast to stop, especially with nans and turrets.

My solution:
-Get rid of the price tag
-Keep damage at 60/75 for XRM1/2.

I need no reason anything else needs to be touched unless of course you like wasting time and effort for something that will need additional balancing.

[Gandalf2]

QUOTE (spideycw @ May 7 2009, 06:30 PM) Just an FYI for now: Please remember that a fully upped Heavy Int With Mini 3 takes about 8 seconds to kill a Heavy Bomber. Heavy bombers can also engage the base at probably 3.5k or so assuming they have ripped in at 4k. Assuming you have ripped in lets say 13 Heavy Bombers (hardly unusual) and we have bumped up the damage to 3/4 of what it used to be - this becomes another I-Win XRM button imo.

If you can get 13 Heavy Bombers, the other team can probably get at least that many heavy ints on the scene. Which would make it a fair fight, of sorts...

I don't remember XRM as being a "kill base button" anyway like everyone says it was. Sure it was pretty lethal, but stoppable - both in terms of hunting down the tp2 scout and in having a furrball trying to blow up all the missiles and/or having some scouts nan the base. Getting the tp2 drop done well required skill, and getting the required number of heavy bombers on the scene required, well, maybe not team work, but at least a sense of team cohesion, and of the team trying to win the game (as opposed to, quake in space). It was a good feeling when it all came off.

Crono - what are you saying? That there are still XRM runs done nowerdays? If not, then why not? Surely you can't be saying that only the cost of the missile is stopping more XRM runs happening?

[cashto]

QUOTE (CronoDroid @ May 7 2009, 02:13 PM) Now our problem is that XRM is crap and useless (sorta like your posts in this forum, but I won't go there) so we need to perk it.

Or remove it.

Again, I ask, why must sup have two endgames which for all intents and purposes are identical: they cost the same and are equally effective?

QUOTE (CronoDroid @ May 7 2009, 02:13 PM) My solution:
-Get rid of the price tag
-Keep damage at 60/75 for XRM1/2.

Right. Because the reason comms don't buy XRM is because the cost per run is too high. 6k a run is too much, but knock it down to 5k and you've got yourself a deal.

[CronoDroid]

QUOTE Crono - what are you saying? That there are still XRM runs done nowerdays? If not, then why not? Surely you can't be saying that only the cost of the missile is stopping more XRM runs happening?[/quote]
QUOTE Right. Because the reason comms don't buy XRM is because the cost per run is too high. 6k a run is too much, but knock it down to 5k and you've got yourself a deal.[/quote]

I'm saying the cost/benefit ratio is severely imbalanced. It costs too much for not enough effectiveness.

XRM/HvyBombers should be seen as a more expensive and effective option to FBs, I've always seen FBs as a complement to Hvy Bombers myself (back when they both were good, using some FBs in the XRM run would mix things up and increase the run's effectiveness by expanding the diversity of threats). FBs were also my "short distance attack", ie if a base was less than 3K from an aleph I would use FBs rather than XRM Hvy Bombers which are arguabably less effective in those situations. But because it's easier to drop a TP2 4K out than a TP2 2K from a base, XRM was the heavy hitter if you really wanted to show the enemy business.

But XRM was too strong and huge teams made it completely IMBA. So we looked for a nerf, but they went too far. I agree the damage was too much and should've been reduced, half is about right. The added cost was unnecesarry because people had the bright idea of somehow making XRM "harder to pull off". Well it was a stupid solution considering the probing of alephs is more than enough to stop TP2, or galving rocks, camping rocks, dropping PPs and making the scout hide, etc. It was just a silly change that made XRM completely pointless.

The damage change is good. I saw it being used, it was less effective but still a big whooping if you needed it. With the cost, it was not worth it.

So by removing the cost and leaving the damage as-is, it will become an effective game ender in those situations when you can shell out for a endgame with a higher chance of success if FBs aren't doing it for you.

[DasSmiter]

What? XRM as it is DOES NOT WORK TO KILL A BASE EFFECTIVELY. This isn't because it costs too much, but because you simply cannot field enough dmg in the short time you have to launch the missiles.

[Adept]

In the two games I've seen XRM used since nerf, the damage was perfectly acceptable. What was needed was either massive amount of bombers (aboutthe 12 mentioned) or a lesser number with at least one living to AB range to put in the final nail.

Crono is correct in that the additional price tag, while not that big a part of the cost of the run kind of pointless now.

[CronoDroid]

QUOTE What? XRM as it is DOES NOT WORK TO KILL A BASE EFFECTIVELY. This isn't because it costs too much, but because you simply cannot field enough dmg in the short time you have to launch the missiles.[/quote]

Not the fault of the missiles, you can do things like have turrets, nans or get FBs to act as the vanguard to the XRM force. Any more damage and it would be far too strong. It needs to be somewhat weak, you know XRM1 does 60 damage, ten bombers firing all at once is 600, which is more than a single AB2 (500). Hvy Bombers carry five, so if you have a ten Bomber run, you could theoretically put SEVEN AB2s into the techbase before a reload, which is more than enough to kill most faction's techbases. You will also usually get at least one or two bombers that close to SRM AB range and that will seal the deal for you. XRM2 does even more damage, 75. And this is before missile GAs.

So tell me, is 7+ AB2 fired by a group of ten Hvy Bombers not enough to kill a techbase? It takes 5 AB2/10KB/Missile Damage2 to kill an Adv IC Exp with no Hull and Shield GAs.

Work it out, the damage is more than adequate.

[TurkeyXIII]

It takes 43 XRM2 (missile damage 2, avg 10 kb) to kill an IC AdvExp (Station hull 2, station shield 2), which takes 10 hvy bbrs 20 seconds to fire once accelerated to adequate velocity. Another faction's base without the GAs drops the XRM2 requirement to 32, and the time-to-fire to 15 seconds.

It takes an XRM Hvy Bomber 13.5 seconds to travel 500m accelerating from stationary after which it is doing 59 m/s and can start firing pretty safely. TP2 activates in 10 seconds, bbr ripcord is 8.25 seconds. Add another 4 seconds or so to turn to towards the base, and the defending ints have 56 seconds to launch, fly towards the bombers, and kill over half.