Visibility

[Adam4]

QUOTE (raumvogel @ Mar 11 2009, 02:18 AM) If it ain't broke....don't fix it.

[KGJV]

QUOTE (Alien51 @ Mar 8 2009, 09:52 PM) Currently, if you're sensors don't pick up a target you cannot see it. Why? I propose we discuss changing this...

What I'm saying is making everything in the game visible to the eye (with appropriate lighting of course), regardless of signature or senors. With the exception of Cloaked things. This brings up many balance issues and new gameplay possibilities.
Such as...
What about seeing Stations?Will stations be able to cloak?Right now all sectors are clear. What about making fog?Or changing the color, brightness, or w/e of the lighting?If seeing were to become a major gameplay factor, then how about changing the cockpits' views to vary according to the factions and ships?How would this work within the different views? Most importantly the F3.What about lag issues?

Is it possible?
Alien51

"visible to the eye" is one thing, easily doable but how this impacts targeting and F3 view (and minimap icons) :

what's the threshold for 'visible to the eye' -> if just "one ray of light" can reach your ship then it's enough to target that object and/or display it on F3.

this is hardly realistic. in real space if you see a white dot, you can't right away tell if it's a rock or a ship. there are distance, spectral analysis and 'zooming' issues as well as a 'time to analyse' issue.

Alleg is only about signatures and scan ranges. nothing else. It's simple and efficient. What matters isnt the pilot but the computer onboard the ship.Without it you can't target.

Also 'cloaking' isn't a 'status' per se in Alleg, it's just a reduction of the signature, so implementing what you propose would also require to add a new 'cloaked' state to each objects.

what about friendly objects? if you can't "actually see" them , you don"t know where they are ? so you'll still need the scan reporting to friendly feature ..

I don't think the concept of "visible to the eye" fits well for Alleg. it's space. you're actually completly blind, everything you see is computer generated and displayed in a virtual HUD.

it's much like real spaceships. Hell, spoutnik and apollo modules had no real 'windows', it's completly instrumented. Even the space shuttle, the front windows are only used for landing operations (and I bet they don't even need them). It's all about radars and gps (so scanners like alleg). No one use 'light and eye' to travel in space.

The 3D view in Alleg is just for 'gaming' purpose. a real "space war" is just about 'blips and dots' on a computer screen , boring

ps- Alleg has already fog: it's the scan spheres around all your team objects.

[EdDaalleg]

QUOTE (Alien51 @ Mar 10 2009, 04:31 PM) Just to conclude the responses... Basically everyone said that they didn't like the idea because it would have problems. Duh. I know. I said that. But if the problems could be fixed in a favorable way, would you still not like the idea? Would you like to create a 2nd detection system?

I think you are wrong. Everyone said they didn't like it because the problems are intractable and it detracts from gameplay. Like I said before, you are proposing a change that would require so many other changes to work that the game would be unrecognizable.

[Alien51]

QUOTE (Edmond @ Mar 18 2009, 12:40 PM) I think you are wrong. Everyone said they didn't like it because the problems are intractable and it detracts from gameplay. Like I said before, you are proposing a change that would require so many other changes to work that the game would be unrecognizable.

Lol Edmond, are not "problems that are intractable and detract from gameplay" problems?

[Dorjan]

Kage is right. Close the topic

[Andon]

There already is a 'visible' type of thing in the alleg code.

Don't believe me? Grab ICE, a home server, and follow these simple instructions:

1) Modify a ship to have 0 signature
2) Fire up server. Connect two times.
3) Start game.
4) Take 0-sig ship to enemy base.
5) Look in wonder as you are eyed a few meters from the base in your 'invisible' ship

[EdDaalleg]

QUOTE (Alien51 @ Mar 18 2009, 07:51 PM) Lol Edmond, are not "problems that are intractable and detract from gameplay" problems?

http://www.tfd.com/intractable

[Makida]

This is relevant! Well not directly, but interesting:
QUOTE Wargames like GDW's STAR CRUISER describe interplanetary combat as being like hide and go seek with bazookas. Stealthy ships are tiny needles hidden in the huge haystack of deep space. The first ship that detects its opponent wins by vaporizing said opponent with a nuclear warhead. [...] Well, that turns out not to be the case...

If the spacecraft are torchships, their thrust power is several terawatts. This means the exhaust is so intense that it could be detected from Alpha Centauri. By a passive sensor.

The Space Shuttle's much weaker main engines could be detected past the orbit of Pluto. The Space Shuttle's manoeuvering thrusters could be seen as far as the asteroid belt. And even a puny ship using ion drive to thrust at a measly 1/1000 of a g could be spotted at one astronomical unit.

This is with current off-the-shelf technology. Presumably future technology would be better.[/quote] Oh Atomic Rocket, such fun.

[Koln]

I think you all have gone the wrong way in this thing . I have already thought about visual contact and I'm sure it could fit alleg style pretty much, and also improve the game . Let's go point by point:

First of all, it should possible to see a thing that your sensors don't see. I mean, i think sensors work something like radar. Radar "fires" a radio wave to the air and the reflected signal from the ship is what is detected. In alleg what you detect is the signal that the ship emmits (you spell it that way?) so if the signal it low enough, you could see if before your sensors do (they just get signals above a minimum). However, we can also see it the other way: your sensors send a radio wave to the other craft and detect the one coming back. A stealthier ship would "reflect" less of that signal and that signal could be increased with the one emmited by your own ship (with missiles, shields and that stuff), that returning wave (emmision+reflection) is your actual signal. So far, i've said nothing new, just described the way our sensors works now .

Now let's think about the case that the enemy signal is low enough but it is near enough so you can see it. You see it (or his engine or other things) but your sensors don't, so you can't get missile lock, your ship can't tell others were the enemy is and other things (yes, you could actually say it, but typing or by TS...). This case is surely real, but only possible.

How would that affect cloacking? Well, let's say that cloacks make you invisible to light AND reduce your signal. This way stealth ships could work same way as they do now, you could only detect tem if they enter into sensor range or if they decloack and you actually see them

How would that affect F3? As you know, F3 displays enemy ships that YOUR SENSORS detect, not the things you see. Now you see what you're sensors detect, but sensors wouldn't detect everything you see . So, it's not like if you had a giant camera above every sector seeing stuff, you would need to have a pilot there to see things AND detect them. Also, probes would only DETECT, not see. F3 would display everything .

What about textures mods? You're saying people would make ships white......but i would make mine dark as hell so people don't see me. I'll have to set all other ships to black to, since i don't know what faction I would be playing... Also, we could do the other way, make texture files restricted. That wouldnt neccesarily take down all Artwork work, but it maybe possible to have installed ALL texture files and you just select those that you want, like many other games do.

But....wouldn't it make scouts unnecesary?? Actually, no. If this was done and texture files restricted, new textures would be dark, so things are not seen from far. The most visible thing is the engine, and....we're just used to a burning engine back there on our ships, but actual working engines should be ion engines, and so they wouldnt emmit any light at all (or barelly some). New textures may be done .

So now, how can you do it?? Well....I've got no idea....hehehe xD. My coding abilities are limited (I've got to learn more) and this is far away from what i can do....I'm just giving ideas (got a lot of them, some coms i've flown to can tell ).