XRM Antibase Missiles
The point is the most intelligent team cannot defend from an 1 intelligent person dropping a tp 2 or the 20 clueless people that rip in xrm bombers to it
I'm sorry I don't remember any of it. For you the day spideycw graced your squad with utter destruction was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Sunday
Idanmel wrote:QUOTE (Idanmel @ Mar 19 2012, 05:54 AM) I am ashamed for all the drama I caused, I have much to learn on how to behave when things don't go my way.
My apologies.
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CronoDroid
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I have no idea when people started thinking XRM was anywhere near as good as SBs. You don't need "one" good pilot to drop TP2, you need one awesome TP2'er (of which there are not $#@!ing many), and a good pilot to escort him or her in a scout. And guess what, scouts, unless they're BIOS, can't cloak, whereas SBs can cloak. This makes eluding the enemy much easier in an SB, even taking into account a scout's speed and agility compared to an SB.
Oh, and if they're camping alephs, TP2 scouts are just as useless as SBs. And SBs don't scale well either. Twenty ints can't stop twenty SBs either. Also TP2 makes a loud flashing thing on the minimap when it's dropped. Even if it's an uneyed drop, it still shows up when it activates. SBs provided the same situation (lack of probage or PP'age) won't get eyed until like 2.5K from a base. This is when the D will launch. For TP2 drops, the D has those vital ten seconds when the bombers are ripping to get into formation. For SBs, they're already 2.5K away from the base. And SB'ing isn't hard. Sure you get the occasional voob $#@!ing things up but no more so than when you're TP2'ing. I would trust a voob in an SB who can follow orders more than I would trust a voob trying to TP2.
On the defensive side, twenty ints, even if they all have SUPREME situational awareness will not all go for seperate SBs. In fact what usually happens is because of different timing for the SBs, you'll have five on this SB, three on the other, whatever. I have seen twelve XRM Hvy Bombers fail to kill techbases many times. I have never seen twelve SBs fail to kill a techbase, ever. I haven't even seen seven SBs fail to kill a techbase. I have seen six SBs fail to kill an op before, but I won't get into that.
It is incredibly easy to hide and elude detection in your SB, even for a voob. Hell, a voob knows how to "GET TO 8K AND RECHARGE". It's fairly impossible to hunt down SBs if they're more than 7K away from a techbase, and there will be many of them. There's only one TP2 scout, and he can't cloak. He also has to find a perfect rock to drop behind, and the drop can be stopped like CoD said.
So how is XRM TP2 more effective than Stealth Bombers? SBs can take out small bases much more easily than Sup can, and with less manpower. They can also take out techbases with less manpower. SBs are cheaper. SBs can cloak. SBs can defend themselves unlike scouts. And SB'ing doesn't require nearly as much skill as you think. And because the burden of success is placed on the shoulders of many people, rather than just a single plucky TP2 scout, the chances of a catastrophe are much less. One SB gets whacked? Unfortunate but he can be replaced in short order, and we have another three SBs in the sector, not to worry. One TP2 scout gets whacked? Oh dear we just lost our only TP2'er, we have to spend another ten minutes getting him into position plus that was 1K down the drain in TP2s.
And like I said it's harder to hunt down multiple people in a sector than it is to hunt down a single person. My main point was to refute MW's claims that XRM should be left in. XRM isn't as effective as SBs because Sup is better than Tac during the earlier stages of the game. Because Tac has a harder time getting SBs than Sup has getting XRM, they should keep SBs while XRM should be taken out.
Oh, and if they're camping alephs, TP2 scouts are just as useless as SBs. And SBs don't scale well either. Twenty ints can't stop twenty SBs either. Also TP2 makes a loud flashing thing on the minimap when it's dropped. Even if it's an uneyed drop, it still shows up when it activates. SBs provided the same situation (lack of probage or PP'age) won't get eyed until like 2.5K from a base. This is when the D will launch. For TP2 drops, the D has those vital ten seconds when the bombers are ripping to get into formation. For SBs, they're already 2.5K away from the base. And SB'ing isn't hard. Sure you get the occasional voob $#@!ing things up but no more so than when you're TP2'ing. I would trust a voob in an SB who can follow orders more than I would trust a voob trying to TP2.
On the defensive side, twenty ints, even if they all have SUPREME situational awareness will not all go for seperate SBs. In fact what usually happens is because of different timing for the SBs, you'll have five on this SB, three on the other, whatever. I have seen twelve XRM Hvy Bombers fail to kill techbases many times. I have never seen twelve SBs fail to kill a techbase, ever. I haven't even seen seven SBs fail to kill a techbase. I have seen six SBs fail to kill an op before, but I won't get into that.
It is incredibly easy to hide and elude detection in your SB, even for a voob. Hell, a voob knows how to "GET TO 8K AND RECHARGE". It's fairly impossible to hunt down SBs if they're more than 7K away from a techbase, and there will be many of them. There's only one TP2 scout, and he can't cloak. He also has to find a perfect rock to drop behind, and the drop can be stopped like CoD said.
So how is XRM TP2 more effective than Stealth Bombers? SBs can take out small bases much more easily than Sup can, and with less manpower. They can also take out techbases with less manpower. SBs are cheaper. SBs can cloak. SBs can defend themselves unlike scouts. And SB'ing doesn't require nearly as much skill as you think. And because the burden of success is placed on the shoulders of many people, rather than just a single plucky TP2 scout, the chances of a catastrophe are much less. One SB gets whacked? Unfortunate but he can be replaced in short order, and we have another three SBs in the sector, not to worry. One TP2 scout gets whacked? Oh dear we just lost our only TP2'er, we have to spend another ten minutes getting him into position plus that was 1K down the drain in TP2s.
And like I said it's harder to hunt down multiple people in a sector than it is to hunt down a single person. My main point was to refute MW's claims that XRM should be left in. XRM isn't as effective as SBs because Sup is better than Tac during the earlier stages of the game. Because Tac has a harder time getting SBs than Sup has getting XRM, they should keep SBs while XRM should be taken out.
If you let the other team get 100k then its obvious that you don't have the most intelligent team.spideycw wrote:QUOTE (spideycw @ Oct 25 2008, 02:38 AM) The point is the most intelligent team cannot defend from an 1 intelligent person dropping a tp 2 or the 20 clueless people that rip in xrm bombers to it
There is a noted exception for bios who are cheesy $#@!ers which is why you have to take out bios before 30 mins (bios could get tp2 xrm in about 25mins depending on sup rock planting time).
Crono:
It's much easier to setup a tp2 because the time it requires to setup is minimal.
20 SBs means 20 guys that have to walk into a sector from another sector, get to 6-8k and recharge and then start a run. Meanwhile the enemy is bombing their asses and they're all in SBs.
20 XRMers mean 20 guys that undock 10 secs after just one compromised guy says 'get bombers I drop'. Pretty difficult to defend against that... even worse when you consider guys on the defending team that have to get back to base from hunting tp2 scouts, second tp2 drops, decoys, etc etc.
It's much easier to setup a tp2 because the time it requires to setup is minimal.
20 SBs means 20 guys that have to walk into a sector from another sector, get to 6-8k and recharge and then start a run. Meanwhile the enemy is bombing their asses and they're all in SBs.
20 XRMers mean 20 guys that undock 10 secs after just one compromised guy says 'get bombers I drop'. Pretty difficult to defend against that... even worse when you consider guys on the defending team that have to get back to base from hunting tp2 scouts, second tp2 drops, decoys, etc etc.
One short sleep past, we wake eternally and Death shalt be no more; Death, thou shalt die! 
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CronoDroid
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No, because you don't need nearly as many SB'ers as XRM'ers. Five is enough for pretty much any faction's techbase. And like I said the chances of a TP2'er being made are much higher than the chances of an SB being made. Again it's on the shoulders of the TP2 scout, one guy who is liable to screw things up, and honestly there's not many good TP2'ers anyway. If one SB dies trying to get into a sector, it's no biggie, the four guys behind him know to wait for someone to come clear the way. If a SB dies inside the target sector, the other guys with him know to hide and avoid the hunters. And it's much cheaper to SB.
Assuming the same circumstances SBs will ALWAYS be more effective than TP2/XRM. Small teams? Definitely. Large teams? Even more so. If the sector is being defended, SBs have an easier time eluding the enemy and defending themselves than scouts do. They can cloak, they can carry Hunters, and Snipers.
Why are people having so much trouble understanding SBs are much better than XRM? They are better in any situation you would use TP2 XRM in. If you're going to refute my point, please don't use an idiotic example. When I say 20 SBs vs 20 XRM'ers, I mean ALREADY IN THE SECTOR ATTACKING THE BASE. I didn't say "getting 20 SBs into the sector". I said "20 SBs are just as hard to stop as 20 XRM'ers". NOTHING about any of that crap about setting up. I mean when they choose to attack the base.
Anyway this topic wasn't about how good SBs are compared to XRM, I only said SBs are better than XRM (which they are) to prove a point to MW that XRM SHOULD be taken out. Unfortunately SOMEONE deleted his posts which weren't "egocentric" anyway. Just him spouting some nonsense, so business as usual over at Community Core.
Assuming the same circumstances SBs will ALWAYS be more effective than TP2/XRM. Small teams? Definitely. Large teams? Even more so. If the sector is being defended, SBs have an easier time eluding the enemy and defending themselves than scouts do. They can cloak, they can carry Hunters, and Snipers.
Why are people having so much trouble understanding SBs are much better than XRM? They are better in any situation you would use TP2 XRM in. If you're going to refute my point, please don't use an idiotic example. When I say 20 SBs vs 20 XRM'ers, I mean ALREADY IN THE SECTOR ATTACKING THE BASE. I didn't say "getting 20 SBs into the sector". I said "20 SBs are just as hard to stop as 20 XRM'ers". NOTHING about any of that crap about setting up. I mean when they choose to attack the base.
Anyway this topic wasn't about how good SBs are compared to XRM, I only said SBs are better than XRM (which they are) to prove a point to MW that XRM SHOULD be taken out. Unfortunately SOMEONE deleted his posts which weren't "egocentric" anyway. Just him spouting some nonsense, so business as usual over at Community Core.
I still sorta stand by my point. It's just a combination of where sup comes from (harder to kill miners, even though easier to d vs. bombruns compared to Tac), cash needed to get viable tech (Sig3 SBs vs Tp2-XRM Hvy Bbrs), etc.
However, keeping a lil more on topic of the thread, I do agree XRMs are a little... excesive. Problem is the 'proper' replacement (Tp2-figbbrs) can sometimes be a little inadequate (somewhat sluggish, but if you drop too close the tp2 will get blown, etc).
Proposition: Turn SRM AB3 from a 'faster reload missile' to a 1.5k base range missile. Combine with Figbbrs, profit?
One short sleep past, we wake eternally and Death shalt be no more; Death, thou shalt die!
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Star_Sailor
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CronoDroid wrote:QUOTE (CronoDroid @ Oct 25 2008, 01:11 AM) Oh, and if they're camping alephs, TP2 scouts are just as useless as SBs
XRM bombers as a whole isn't useless...
Yesterday 4 XRM bombers walked into 8 LXY Figs and managed to kill down the Sup (3.9k)
Night's darkness is a bag that bursts in the gold of the dawn
-Thagore
Everyone can change, but will you change?
that, that i'll supportDeath3D wrote:QUOTE (Death3D @ Oct 26 2008, 12:29 AM) Proposition: Turn SRM AB3 from a 'faster reload missile' to a 1.5k base range missile. Combine with Figbbrs, profit?
you don't even have to increase the dmg from ab2, just make ab3 a 1.5k range missile (you've spent damn near 30k getting it)
that will work well with f/b i think
Get over yourselves, don't try to win arguments on the internet where the option of a punch in the mouth is unavailable
"It is not that I cannot create anything good, but that I will not." And to prove this, he created the peacock.
XRM Run = 90k without adv/hvy scouts or xrm2 or rip GA's
teched out XRM Run = 115k (assuming no shield ups or GA's)
HTT + mini3 hvys = 67.5k
teched out HTT (hvy scouts) and mini3 run = 85k (with no GA's)
so the expansion end game is 20-30k less than the sup end game with much better sector superiority (i've included mini3 hvys in these calcs while the xrm run has gat1/dumb1/boost1 figs to use)
not only that, but xrm requires you to keep 2 bases alive (garr + sup) for a majority of the game, and every time you wish to do it you pay around 5k (tp2 + hvy bombers)
but, of course, xrm is cheese because it is harder to defend against...unless you camp an aleph like you would against sb's, but wait! your hvy ints with mini3? THEY GET ANOTHER CHANCE TO KILL THE RUN AFTER THE ENTIRE SETUP IS DONE AND THE SUP TEAM HAS INVESTED ALL THIS MONEY INTO THE TECH AND THE SCOUT PILOT MANAGED TO DODGE YOUR PP SPAM AND DROP IN THE SECTOR
but sup is definately the tech that needs to be nerfed
i played a game tonight with f/b's that had cruise and ab3 and shield 2. Do you know how the game was ended? Cruisers
teched out XRM Run = 115k (assuming no shield ups or GA's)
HTT + mini3 hvys = 67.5k
teched out HTT (hvy scouts) and mini3 run = 85k (with no GA's)
so the expansion end game is 20-30k less than the sup end game with much better sector superiority (i've included mini3 hvys in these calcs while the xrm run has gat1/dumb1/boost1 figs to use)
not only that, but xrm requires you to keep 2 bases alive (garr + sup) for a majority of the game, and every time you wish to do it you pay around 5k (tp2 + hvy bombers)
but, of course, xrm is cheese because it is harder to defend against...unless you camp an aleph like you would against sb's, but wait! your hvy ints with mini3? THEY GET ANOTHER CHANCE TO KILL THE RUN AFTER THE ENTIRE SETUP IS DONE AND THE SUP TEAM HAS INVESTED ALL THIS MONEY INTO THE TECH AND THE SCOUT PILOT MANAGED TO DODGE YOUR PP SPAM AND DROP IN THE SECTOR
but sup is definately the tech that needs to be nerfed
i played a game tonight with f/b's that had cruise and ab3 and shield 2. Do you know how the game was ended? Cruisers
Get over yourselves, don't try to win arguments on the internet where the option of a punch in the mouth is unavailable
"It is not that I cannot create anything good, but that I will not." And to prove this, he created the peacock.
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CronoDroid
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If you were one of the Lxy Figs, I wouldn't be surprised. If *I* or someone competent was flying a Lxy Fig, they would've been dead before they could even fire.Star_Sailor wrote:QUOTE (Star_Sailor @ Oct 25 2008, 05:42 AM) XRM bombers as a whole isn't useless...
Yesterday 4 XRM bombers walked into 8 LXY Figs and managed to kill down the Sup (3.9k)
What?! HTTs are not nearly as good as TP2, it may cost 20-30K less but it's 40-50K less effective.'DasSmiter' wrote:...
QUOTE i played a game tonight with f/b's that had cruise and ab3 and shield 2. Do you know how the game was ended? Cruisers[/quote]
Well then you either had an excessively competent team or an excessively incompetent TP2 scout. NORMALLY I wouldn't use team competence (or the magical "Good Team" in balance arguments) but there really is a point where failure has to be blamed on a team rather than the tech. This is that point. Maybe someone should ask Shiz to play again so at least one team could have a decent TP2 scout for a change. I would love to play Allegiance again and show people how to TP2 properly but sadly I can't.