Remove/Reduce an IC perk

[Broodwich]

QUOTE (KGJV @ Sep 18 2008, 01:24 PM) this is PUG reasoning with ppl trying to solo miner O and no miner D.

I will leave this one for ib

[Evincar]

i have to disagree with KGJV on the bad econ thing. ic miners have a robust, albeit slower econ. you will get your money, in fact, you can get whatever you want practically without mining, since the only thing you need are the techbase money and one or two ops (plus miners).

so, on normal games (not normal money settings, the usual benchmark should be high total, high starting (1.25/1.25), since that's the only thing that gets played in pickups):

miner, op, tele. you have 2(-4) adjacent sectors. mine one of them, that's 20 k. mine your home another 10 k, mine your op, 50 k. now you have a full advanced exp

the disadvantages grow further when you have less money on the map, because you still need the same amount of expansion (ie: nothing beyond your opening op planting) for your adv techbase and they still need a lot of money to buy the ships.

[sambasti]

QUOTE (TakingArms @ Sep 18 2008, 03:35 PM) Ripping miners, to some degree, are not fun. It annoys me that I can have an IC miner down to a sliver of health when suddenly it's gone.

This happens way to often. If a team doesn't defend it's miners, they should pay. IC doesn't have to, because they can just rip them out.

[takingarms1]

QUOTE (KGJV @ Sep 18 2008, 04:24 PM) this is PUG reasoning with ppl trying to solo miner O and no miner D.

No it's not. If your squad is worth @#(! they will have enemy sectors probed and will see attacks coming long before they get into sector, and IC's miners will be gone. In fact the problem is compounded in squad games since having a couple of guys defending the miner nearly gaurantees that it will have time to rip, as opposed to a regular miner that has to walk to a base.

QUOTE (KGJV @ Sep 18 2008, 04:24 PM) Ripping miners give IC one of the worst econ of the game. Mining with a ref (fast offloading with no docking) is much more efficient.

I agree that mining with a ref is more efficient, but being able to move your miner anywhere you have a tele across multiple sectors has serious advantages. Also, GT has no refs and no ripping miners and their econ manages quite well.

QUOTE (KGJV @ Sep 18 2008, 04:24 PM) The only overpowered aspect of IC is IC Exp with MINI2 AS FLOATING TECH.

True, I dont think floating techs should be part of alleg

@ brood, wildcards go something other than IC exp routinely but we usually find it a much more uphill battle if we are facing IC exp

[Correct]

I soloed 2 IC Miners vs ACE last month by camping their TP.

[spideycw]

That aside the reason we generally do not go IC in squad games is because they suck.

For pu games that is all fine and dandy and I Rank them as first for pickup game level of play because they have lt ints and for no other reason. There are at least 3 faction I would say are better than IC on just about every map due in no small part to IC's long con building times

[Psychosis]

look at all this good discussion!

[pkk]

QUOTE (sambasti @ Sep 19 2008, 12:58 AM) This happens way to often. If a team doesn't defend it's miners, they should pay. IC doesn't have to, because they can just rip them out.

IC ripping miners in no real advantage. They have reduced capacity and mine very slow, plus see KGJVs points above.
You loose miners to campers at telesYou loose ripped miners, which are damaged (sometimes 10% hull left) at the home ripAI aborts the ripcord often, if you have a base in the same sector, while you try to rip them outAI goes mad (ripping to teleports in unsecure sectors)

[Drizzo]

Touch IC and IB dies. He's currently locked in my attic.

[jbourne]

tldr: given good arguments on both sides shouldn't we leave things as they are given the 48% win percentage?

seems there are good arguments on both sides of the discussion

i would just throw in my two cents saying that to my understanding IC fares better on smaller/tighter maps and in larger games (the more players there are the greater advantage ungalvable and generally rugged bases are, and lt ints can be utilized to a greater extent at start)

ripping, slow miners have their pros and cons, but once again they are a greater advantage in smaller games (but should we even take smaller PUGs into account?)

there are so many variables that come into play (map size, amount of teamwork, team size) and just as the ripping miners can counter lack of teamwork to some extent so can gt's pali cheese and ease of expanding, dregh enh cons and so on

removing mini2, hunt2, util2 from floating tech would really hurt belts

edit:fixed a typo