Why DN is the sole responsability of a unique person ?

KGJV · Post by **KGJV** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:10 am

98% of games, if not more, are played on DN.

DN is the 'de facto' standard core now.

Then can someone explains me why destiny of DN is in the hands of a unique person ?

We have a dev team for code changes but no 'core team' for the "standard core" changes... something wrong here , no ?

Grimmwolf_GB · Post by **Grimmwolf_GB** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:32 am

You can choose any core you want when you launch Allegiance.
You can choose GoDII, DN, EoR, ... All of them are maintained by a single person, some of those core maintainers ask before changing stuff, some don't. It is their core, no-one stops you or anyone else from creating a new core. pkk, Zapper and I will always host a new core on our server.

KGJV · Post by **KGJV** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:39 am

Grimmwolf_GB wrote:QUOTE (Grimmwolf_GB @ Jul 2 2007, 10:32 AM) You can choose any core you want when you launch Allegiance.
You can choose GoDII, DN, EoR, ... All of them are maintained by a single person, some of those core maintainers ask before changing stuff, some don't. It is their core, no-one stops you or anyone else from creating a new core. pkk, Zapper and I will always host a new core on our server.

That's theory. In pratice 98% of games are played on DN. That's a fact.

When you log in to play, you dont choose the core, you choose the server where everyone is on. This is usually DN. Have you ever tried to move people to play on GoD or EoR ?

I log to play and have fun. It happens that I have NO OTHER CHOICE than to play on DN if I want a big game. So yes DN is the standard core now and it should not be maintenained by a unique person.

Grimmwolf_GB · Post by **Grimmwolf_GB** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:45 am

Well, I don't believe in robbing anyone of their work just because it happens to be popular. A+ was more or less community driven and it lost its acceptance.

I have only been back for a week, but the number of players suggest that it should be possible to open a new game and play with a decent amount of players.

Seriously, if you want to create a community core, do it, but don't just take Noir's work.

Post by **Raveen** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:49 am

I see what you're saying KGJV but at the end of the day, Noir has put a lot of work in to DN and he claims ownership of the core and it's features. If control were to be passed to a dev group then it would have to be with Noir's blessing.

In reality how much core design is actually done by the Core Dev? I know that Hawk is the EoR Dev but most changes are rigerously discussed beforehand (hence a lot of people know about the proposed changes before Hawk gets around to implimenting them).

Gappy · Post by **Gappy** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:01 am

Because committees are a terrible way to make complex decisions. Balance is quite complex, and while it's acceptable for multiple people to provide input, only one person should make the decisions. Too many chefs spoil the stew and all that.

KGJV · Post by **KGJV** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:17 am

I acknowledge Noir's work and time spent in DN. Much like others and I spent huge amount of time in coding or doing other stuff for this game.
But we didnt put any copyright on our work and time. Anyone is free to extend, modify our work.

I acknowledge that most changes he made have been discussed here.

It's not about robbing Noir's work.

It's about not depending ONLY on Noir's time and goodwill for future changes to occur.

It's about putting game destiny in the hand of the people who actually PLAY it a lot. And cores are central to gameplay.

It's about the concept of "ownership" on parts of this game. Cores, code or artwork are the parts of the game. Why cores and artwork should be treated differently ?

Allegiance is a sort of open source project under MSR Shared Source license agreement.

DN is based upon zone_core wich fall under MSR license.

DN was made with ICE. When I made ICE it was with the spirit that anything created with it would be in public domain. Do I have to change ICE license when we'll eventually update core format in R5 or later ?

Acknowledging someone time and effort is one thing, placing copyright and ownership is another.

Post by **Raveen** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:32 am

I agree with that all Kage, but Noir doesn't and has threatened legal action in the past over perceived infringements of his IP.

Grimmwolf_GB · Post by **Grimmwolf_GB** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:23 am

Actually, he might have threatened to use legal action but his rights are quite limited. By publishing his stuff for Allegiance he more or less gave up his rights. Yes, he bought models for Nix and the legal disclaimer of the model maker prohibits using the models in an open source environment, but that is not our "problem", it is Noir's. All the other core makers however respect his wishes and do not use stuff from his core.

KaGe, sure, you would have all rights to base another core on the current DN 4.60, but I would beg you not to. While I don't like every aspect of DN (I recreated GoDII because DN was pissing me off), I appreciate Noir's work and time and would not want to drive him away over this.

Gappy · Post by **Gappy** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:59 am

Clearly the problem you have Kage is not 'why does any one single person have control over the changes to DN' but rather 'Why doesn't someone who actively play make the changes.'

Noir has done a fine job with maintaining DN, and there's no reason to think right now that DN has been abandoned. Community consensus right now is that it's his work to modify from the 'it's the right thing to do standpoint, not from a legal standpoint.