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Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ Mar 4 2011, 09:32 AM) So voobie, what exactly do you want? Win button cheese tech? "If you get this tech the enemy is $#@!ed no matter the skill?"

This is the entire issue, summed up nicely.

Some people believe that powerful tech that costs a lot of money cannot be stopped because they are unable to do it themselves.

Others know differently.

The perception of "fairness" is way the hell skewed at this point.

THERE SHOULD BE SITUATIONS WHERE A TEAM CANNOT WIN. If you are able to mine however much hvy scouts, tp2 and heavy bbrs and xrm cost then it should be fairly easy to win. It was never unstoppable, but it was hard. It was also $#@!ing expensive.

It's not a "win button" when you still have to sneak scouts into the enemy sector, coordinate everyone to launch at the same time and rip in and save up enough cash for all of this.

Bear in mind all the bases and upgrades you needed to buy for this too.

This is not kindergarten, where everyone should feel like a winner and be congratulated for trying. The better team should win, and both teams should have fun doing it. It was fun as hell to defend against an XRM drop.

any kind of a win button must be organized by a team. Doesn't matter if you get uber-tech and you can't get organized enough to use it properly. And if a team manages to mine to get the expensive cheese before the enemy, that's fun!

Utilizing 10% advantages and exactly the same tech is boring. Bring back all the wonderful diversity and introduce more.

As i said, it's impossible to balance a core without changing the way stats work for different sized teams. Stop wasting the effort and concentrate on things which are important (more sanity in tech trees) and fun (all kinds of crazy uber tech unique to each faction).

If you want balance towards middle, command the same faction. Please stop nerfing stuff.

Bacon wrote:QUOTE (Bacon @ Apr 25 2008, 03:19 PM) Dear Community Core Minions,

TAKE HEED OF MY FOLLOWING WISE WORDS!!!

Don't turn this core into a vanilla "everything is kinda the same" core! Don't create something that simply pleases everybody on paper... create something that ENTERTAINS everybody in the game.

Keep things different. Keep things interesting. Don't be afraid to really differentiate one faction from another, or one tech tree from another, or even one individual tech from another. Don't be afraid to make things powerful or to make things weak. As long as every faction has powerful tech as well as weak tech, things will stay balanced. Fun does not come from keeping things the same. Fun comes from keeping things varied. As they say, variety is the spice of life. The same goes for Alleg!

PLEASE keep this in mind as you guys try to create a democratic core. I can see how a core created democratically will be full of compromises and general boringness, as everybody will disagree on everything and nobody will agree on anything. The result will be a generic, cookie cutter core that generates boring, predictable games. Don't make it so every faction is the same, or that all 3 tech paths are omni-useful... make things different, and balance as you go.

Don't be afraid to take chances!

Aarm -- don't be afraid to make executive decisions! I'm sure you have a good idea of how to do all of this, and I'm not trying to tell you how to go about your shiny new job... I'm just urging you to at least consider overruling something popular in favor of creating a more entertaining core.

Good luck guys, and take chances!!

Love,

TEH Bacon

i dont think we give him enough credit

Icky wrote:QUOTE (Icky @ Mar 4 2011, 07:54 PM) This is the entire issue, summed up nicely.

Some people believe that powerful tech that costs a lot of money cannot be stopped because they are unable to do it themselves.

Others know differently.

I was asking a question, not presenting an opinion. I was trying to get a feel what exactly voobscout was askign for, not lampooning it.

What does the "crazy über tech unique to faction" mean in actual Allegiance terms?

What they want is Starcraft in space!

PS.) Closest thing to a 'win button' we have is HoD. Don't really think anything else qualifies...

Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ Mar 4 2011, 03:57 PM) I was asking a question, not presenting an opinion. I was trying to get a feel what exactly voobscout was askign for, not lampooning it.

What does the "crazy über tech unique to faction" mean in actual Allegiance terms?

The wording of your response made it sound like a sarcastic, incredulous question. If you were seriously asking "So voobie, what exactly do you want? Win button cheese tech? 'If you get this tech the enemy is $#@!ed no matter the skill?'" then I apologize and you should introduce sarcasm to Finlandia.

Icky wrote:QUOTE (Icky @ Mar 4 2011, 11:17 PM) The wording of your response made it sound like a sarcastic, incredulous question. If you were seriously asking "So voobie, what exactly do you want? Win button cheese tech? 'If you get this tech the enemy is $#@!ed no matter the skill?'" then I apologize and you should introduce sarcasm to Finlandia.

Nah, it's my bad. That's the english as 2nd language biting me in the arse right there.

I looked at it before I hit add reply, and thought whether I should add some sort of "I'm not troling you Voobie, I'd really like to know some details" but then thought that looked wrong somehow.

I like how constructive the thread got suddenly. Please do not derail it to the point where it gets to rants.

My idea is to have dn460 stats on most of the things, dmg/hp modifiers, hvy boost, other kinds of nerfed tech and the established CC tech tree, what goes where kind of stuff.

I would like to see some of the more crazier ideas tried out, like i heard someone suggest AoE for dis3.
I'd like to see cap ship nan brought as a working SY tech to GT.
I think it's only fair if belts keep tp2 after adv SUP dies. They keep pretty much everything else.
BIOS should be able to turtle again.
Giga lxy sfigs might get a bit more agil, as a special perk.
Who said gauss was too much? If you are able to mine for it, it should be yours.
mini-ac turrets should have old spread.
OH might use reduction in tech base costs, maybe 12.5k? This at least allows to keep research going and get a tech out at earliest opportunity.
I liked the idea of having a use for emp cannons on TT, having a use for TTs at all in some capacity is a concept worth investigating.

How about floating really crazy ideas like a hvy scout being able to deploy SC tower or caltrop, with some required research and associated costs, a'la freighter, a defensible temporary entrenchment or a very amuzing hvy scout camping red doors with towers/trops and belts specific upgrade for ships to have uber hull. Cons ripping to TP2 deployed by ass ship gives a whole other meaning to taking territory as BIOS SY, crazy new things being unique to each faction. Dregh scouts being able to mount hvy boost? Figs being a bit more agile wouldn't hurt.

Were I to talk about XRM hvy bbrs, i'd say they were fine. Again, for a large team overpowered, but for what we usually have in PUGs, a run of 3 to 5 should be able to kill a base with 3 salvos. Again, the details are opened for debate, but logic suggests the purpose of the community core was to provide maximum fun for PUGs, not really be SG level or even Zone level.

We have strange artifacts lying in wait for us to rediscover, even from days of '00, some concepts worth revisiting perhaps revised.

The only thing i do not agree with is the general parity in factions. The direction i don't really want to see is where all tech paths become not only multi purpose, but inter-changeable like some sort of jigsaw puzzle.
Were I to be a bit more jovial i'd say, invent a bigger and better bomb, instead of nerfing some aspect of allowed ordnance.
It's what makes it fun, plus we won't have to fly too many of those boring 2 hour games with only 5 or 10 ppl per team and in larger games we'd be able to provide feedback on concepts to perhaps introduce or nerf in an SG level core, which currently seems to be XC.

As far as perking things in general, maybe a few things should be de-nerfed slowly, increasing cheese level in small dosage.

As a wishlist item, i think the release schedule should be shorter, once in two weeks, roll out all sorts of changes. This might also spur more debate and feedback for both CC and XC. Ofcourse availability of human resources is of a concern.

Bacon nailed the emotional essence of what has become of CC today.

Assigning blame is pointless, if we are willing we can do something about it or choose not to. I can't see the point of indirectly implying that previous dev team/admin or current ones are somehow at fault.

Every attempt at significantly nerfing one aspect or another was met with some stingy after taste and pretty much all changes in how and where we buy tech made a lot of sense most of the time.

While i agree that the absurdly fun RPS already took the concept of uber-perking to a whole new level, i think that a few aspects of CC might deserve special perks, perhaps even making every faction have an ability to unlock mk4 tech, if a team has 3 adv bases of the same path, ie., 3 adv exp allows for mini4, assault ints with shields, some uber dominating things flying vs a team with 3 adv tacs, this might really diversify approach to mining so much, that as a bonus you get super-whore tech or super base killer.

Some of my fantasies might be disturbing and probably shouldn't make it into a release, but perhaps they would give ideas of what to try and what not.

voobscout wrote:QUOTE (voobscout @ Mar 5 2011, 12:33 AM) BIOS should be able to turtle again.

They will, the payday nerf didn't work right / wasn't popular and is being reversed.

QUOTE OH might use reduction in tech base costs, maybe 12.5k? This at least allows to keep research going and get a tech out at earliest opportunity.[/quote]

OH techbase cost is going back ot 10k (with a higher techbase cost upgrade).

QUOTE Were I to talk about XRM hvy bbrs, i'd say they were fine. Again, for a large team overpowered, but for what we usually have in PUGs, a run of 3 to 5 should be able to kill a base with 3 salvos. Again, the details are opened for debate, but logic suggests the purpose of the community core was to provide maximum fun for PUGs, not really be SG level or even Zone level.[/quote]
XRM should be usable. The worst nerfs got taken out. I guess the issue is that figbees are what people are used to now. Do you prefer the XRM heavy bomber endgame to figbees?

QUOTE The only thing i do not agree with is the general parity in factions. The direction i don't really want to see is where all tech paths become not only multi purpose, but inter-changeable like some sort of jigsaw puzzle.[/quote]
Not sure I got this. Do you mean that some factions shoudl objectively be better than others rather than having a roughly zero-sum of strengths and weaknesses? Same for the tech paths. I guess I don't know what you're going for here.

Looks like you're getting at least a few of your wishes in the current fix. You did bring up the RPG core. It sounds pretty much like what you're going for. There's nothing wrong with somebody wanting to re-vitalise it.

Other than that many of the ideas sound like stuff that would be amusing for zone games or other events.

voobscout wrote:QUOTE (voobscout @ Mar 4 2011, 05:33 PM) I would like to see some of the more crazier ideas tried out, like i heard someone suggest AoE for dis3.
I'd like to see cap ship nan brought as a working SY tech to GT.
I think it's only fair if belts keep tp2 after adv SUP dies. They keep pretty much everything else.
BIOS should be able to turtle again.
Giga lxy sfigs might get a bit more agil, as a special perk.
Who said gauss was too much? If you are able to mine for it, it should be yours.
mini-ac turrets should have old spread.
OH might use reduction in tech base costs, maybe 12.5k? This at least allows to keep research going and get a tech out at earliest opportunity.
I liked the idea of having a use for emp cannons on TT, having a use for TTs at all in some capacity is a concept worth investigating.

Dis3 was AoE until CC1 or something, it wasn't too long ago. It was too uber against ints (if i remember) and was removed.

Cap ship nan would be interesting.

Bios turtling is OK to a point, but it leads to long boring games with the winning team being the one that could keep players the longest. Also we don't need to encourage grav to play longer games.

Giga lxy sfs are probably OK as they are. They still have med shield right?

Agree on gauss (it was Adept who said it was too much, FYI). It should be pretty much uber.

Don't care about mini-ac but I think terran will probably have your baby.