P1 vs Ryu

Tactical advice, How-to, Post-mortem, etc.
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zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

Phoenix1 (IC Adv Sup) vs Ryujin (TF Adv Tac/Sup), 1.25/1.15, IO.



So I sent my op and TP to the left, and Ryu split his cons. He built his op on the right choke and put his tp left, close to his home and taking the tac rock there. I intended to push my sup high and take low with a TP as we mined out the sector right close to our home, and some miner offense by Terran and Thallium netted TF a few kills but no miners thanks to an int or two on D. Or maybe Thall was the lt int? I don't really remember. I then mined out the left side as Ryu built a sup high and bombed my op and tele. He got at least one miner out of it, but both of them were empty: when Ryu entered with a bbr I just gave up the base and told my team to be ready to d the sup that I'd planted top right (which was very close to the right choke). The team listened. I thought I only had one miner in the sector, but one was docked and I didn't rip it as a result... had I realized I would ahve ripped it out and let them kill an empty miner while we teched into gat2/df2/qf2/boost2 enh figs and went hog wild on their miners.

I then started taking the rest of the map while Ryu occasionally bombed stuff and lost a couple of miners to some stuff while we got galvs online. Then we got galvs online and galved Ryu off the map, taking the left choke back. At this point Thall started asking me about adv tac being on the way, but we hadn't even seen the adv tac yet and also it was 2.4k away from the aleph on the left, so we were just gonna figbee it, so I told him "yeah I see it but I'm not too worried cuz we'll just figbee it." Then bbrs finished (as they do) and we were just waiting the 2 minutes for figbees to finish. The whole time K10 was on a hider demanding a bbr and saying we would lose if we didn't bomb then and that he had to have a bbr and would blow up the tac and blah blah blah.

There are some pilots who spend much of their time and effort in game disagreeing with me and then, through the discord they manage to sow by occupying so much of my attention trying to organize the team, somehow only a third of my team shows up for the thing they need to do. I get that I need to do a better job of expressing what my vision for the team is when we get into situations like that, but christ can people just calm down and trust me for like ten seconds? It reminds me of the game last weekend where Kirov was like "we needed bbrs" and I was so pissed because hey if you press f5 you'll notice that we are 1:30 away from bbrs, adv scouts, nan2, ac2, and ab2, and if the team had killed giga miners against giga scouts as belters and then been on minerD we would have easily had enough money for SBs instead of doing a bombing end. I'm not buying things randomly and then hoping things work out, I'm trying to set my team up to win games. If the thing I'm doing seems unorthodox, it's probably because you don't understand what the orthodox is in the first place.

Here, a bomb run could have worked. Certainly if we went with an AC2 bomb run we have a good chance of popping the tac. But if the tac is adv, then it's 6 ABs to blow it up, which is a full reload, and we only have nan1. Even if the team xnans perfectly there's still a reasonable shot that the bomb run fails, at which point Ryu has adv tac and maybe even counterplay on a TP or one of the two sups. So instead we wait for figbees and just burst through the aleph at ~160mps, firing our missiles after the 6 seconds that lets us cross the 1k distance before we're in firing range, and the base is guaranteed dead because they can't kill the figbees fast enough.

Despite that, only 5 people bought figbees (spoiler: none of them was K10 because as much as he wanted a bbr he didn't want to be a part of the winning team, he just wanted the glory of having his name in lights). So I hopped in a figbee, at which point someone was checking eye in the sector and warning everyone that there was eye. I said "forget that it's like 1k to the aleph and then 2k to the sup just go, what are they gonig to do prox us?" Somehow we ended up going in 1 by 1 with 6 figbees which was (unsurprisingly) enough to kill the base.

About checking for eye: look it is often necessary for runs like this to be uneyed. Prox is deadly. But in this case there were two flaws with the idea of checking the right choke for eye: First, you can't actually dodge eye from a tac team. Deprobing is cute, but they *almost certainly* have an SF in that sector if the sector is at all important, and if it's a choke, they *almost certainly* are likely to have an SF in that sector that's in transit to somewhere else. Uneyed vs Tac is a matter of luck not deprobing, and it's contingent on your opponent being dead. Second, for short runs against TF it doesn't really matter. They can't prox you, and you just plow through the aleph at full speed. Their plasgens get off a shot or two before you're out of range, and the slow TF ships are now scrambling to catch up with your 100-120 mps bomb run (learn2ram).

One last note about fighting against tac: People talk about tac as if it's the counter to bomb runs, and yeah sure tac has a really hard time dealing with properly executed uneyed bomb runs where the nans are xnanning. But if there's prox on the aleph (because the bomb run is eyed because the enemy has an SF in the sector who was hunting miners and now saw the bbr... again, being uneyed against Tac is not really an option) then the nans are going to have a hard time acquiring targets fast enough which will give the SFs enough of an edge to stop the bomb run. Bombing vs tac is hardly a guaranteed win. The best counter to tac is to safemine with one or two miners and two or four people on defense while the rest of your team attacks the enemy miners. Then slowly push to "next to the tac" and finish the game. So many people just immediately go "ah there's a tac we have to bomb it," but tac isn't all that scary until they have hunt3 and/or SBs: before then you can still do what you need to do, you just have to be a little more cautious about where and how you're mining. There's a slight exception here for Belters SFs with their unusually good sidethrusting, but in reality the principle is the same. I've beaten Terran's belters tac by simply sitting on four rix miners until mini3 hvies and HTTs are ready and then just being a massive pile of damage output that the Belts team couldn't handle.

Probably the worst thing you can do against tac is to overestimate it. Make safe plays and don't overreach. If you can kill their miners and stop them from getting to adv tech, just start with that while you prepare to end the game. Haste makes waste, and I've seen tons of teams lose to tac because they pushed without killing the miners which allows the tac commander to get a second techbase. At that point your miners are usually dead (because you focused so hard on winning that the solo SFs got to snipe off your miners), and so now you're bombing against a tac team that has a full econ and a backup techbase already on the way... even if you get their tac it's basically just a reset with them spending ~$25k on tac + tech and you spending ~$10k on bbrs and losing ~$10k in miners... assuming they only kill empty miners. One full miner and suddenly you're so far down in both money and time that you really can't come back and win.

Which of course segues properly into bomber targeting: against Tac, unless you have their miners contained and/or have your miners alive, it is a mistake to hit the tac first. If you are ending the game against tac with a bomber rush you have to hit the garrison FIRST because you can't let them get more techbases out. If you're thinking to yourself, "but P1, then they have even more time to get up hunter2, sniper1, and probes, and prox" then congratulations you've figured out why bombing isn't as good as advertised against tac, and why Terran has so much success with pure tac: he's just letting bad commanders kill themselves by following a @#(!ty orthodoxy laid out by ACS and command week of Cadet. This reminds me of a game, Terran v Shadowfoxx, where Shadowfoxx opted for early bbrs, lost all his miners, and said in discord, "well at least we have map." I barked out a laugh before muting myself because I knew Terran had 4 miners rolling and they hadn't been touched, so Terran had all the money in the world... which means he already has a second techbase rolling out and is probably pretty closed to adv tech.

Unsurprisingly we then got starved out of the game, at which point Shadowfoxx was like "I almost had it when we took map from you" and then got mad when I pointed out that he never actually had map, that Terran had a TP in the middle and had mined freely, and that's how we lost. Shadowfoxx has now muted me on the forums and in discord and quit Allegiance because I was so mean to him. Probably my bad, but also, Shadowfoxx had spent a month and a half completely dismissing every piece of advice I threw his way because in his mind he was the SysX vet who had to show everyone how it was done and I was just some voob.

Fair enough on the "some voob" part, I guess.
Last edited by zombywoof on Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
Papsmear
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Location: Toronto, Canada

Post by Papsmear »

Didn't I send you the stats for this game?
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zombywoof
Posts: 6522
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:59 am
Location: Over the Rainbow

Post by zombywoof »

You might have. You can also post them you know, you do have posting privileges in this forum :P
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Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
Papsmear
Posts: 4805
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 7:00 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Post by Papsmear »



Stats from the Phoenix1 vs Ryujin Game.
I just figured out how to upload images and show ascending points from top to bottom in AllegStats. :P
Last edited by Papsmear on Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ryujin
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Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:17 am

Post by ryujin »

so wait. did i win or lose?
*#$@faced $#@!tard Troll
zombywoof
Posts: 6522
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:59 am
Location: Over the Rainbow

Post by zombywoof »

You lost this particular game. I just got distracted int he write-up.
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Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
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