PCore9 Proposed Changes

Discussion / Announcement area for PCore development.
vogue
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Post by vogue »

I like to give people a chance before they inevitably disappoint me. I support P1 for core lead.

Right now we need someone who can push out changes with relative frequency - it doesn't seem like p32 will be able to do that and current gameplay is pretty ass in all honesty. There are factions that need some reworking and it'll take a couple iterations to iron out the correct changes.
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ May 5 2013, 08:35 PM) Vogue is clearly #1 and commanding against him feels like commanding against Spideycw at times... though he lacks that little bit of "I don't care who's on my team or what the factions are, it's going to be a stomp anyways" that Spidey managed to pull off in his heyday.
ThePhantom032
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Post by ThePhantom032 »

vogue wrote:QUOTE (vogue @ Jan 12 2015, 03:49 PM) I like to give people a chance before they inevitably disappoint me. I support P1 for core lead.

Right now we need someone who can push out changes with relative frequency - it doesn't seem like p32 will be able to do that and current gameplay is pretty ass in all honesty. There are factions that need some reworking and it'll take a couple iterations to iron out the correct changes.
This.
Though I wouldnt say gameplay is that bad - things besides tac are actually viable for the first time since weedcore buffed it so much, dreg and rix are not the only factions played anymore (though as stated I overdid the nerf on dreg a bit), belts and TF can be viable depending how you play them, ... - but there is also still a lot of room for improvement.

I just gave P1 my notes so he has an easier time starting than I had. Worst case he screws up and I have to do it again :P
Still ready to teach anyone who asks nicely whatever they want to know about playing alleg. Contrary to popular opinion I do not eat newbies. Voobs taste much better.
zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

Djole88 wrote:QUOTE (Djole88 @ Jan 12 2015, 04:55 AM) Part of the allegiance being awesome is that there are more things at stake than just tech balance. You have to give a fair chance to ships that are less advanced AND make stuff fun to fly. You can't judge what is a good ship if you can't fly it properly (see giga lxy ints) therefore your alteration to the ship specs is likely to cause them to behave... unexpectedly.
Ok first of all, I'm a fine pilot.

Second of all, why would you assume I'd make changes to the core based on my experiences flying a ship? What I can or cannot do with a ship is about as useless to core balance as what P32 or Drizzo can or cannot do with a ship. Brood can probably take on half of allegiance at once with a rix hvy, should I nerf rix? (answer: possibly, but probably not.) What matters in game design and balance is the overarching effects of the ships. If Giga Lxy Ints are worth $500 then you'll see giga with absurd kill numbers as overall the team will be outperforming other ints. It has nothing to do with whether or not you beat Babelfish in a particular 1 on 1.

Finally,
Malicious Wraith wrote:QUOTE (Malicious Wraith @ Jan 12 2015, 06:00 AM) Asymmetric warfare has always been the best formula for fun and interesting strategy games ...
Absolutely. Why does everyone have the impression I'm going to Adeptify or Spunkify the core? That's the opposite of my goals. I figured that you guys, seeing me talk about Phoenix the faction, would have figured out that I'm firmly opposed to vanilla factions. That's the whole reason I advocate reverting the drac hull nerf and instead nerfing their damage! Low damage, insane durability is an interesting gameplay twist. The idea that you simply can't solo their miners is an interesting gameplay twist. If it ends up pushing drac over the top, there are other things we can do.

For example: the biggest concern you can have with drac and my proposed changes are P32's concerns. I respect his opinion. If it turns out that my changes make drac overpowered, I'll tone down their econ. If it turns out they make drac even more unplayable, I'll admit I was wrong, revert, and try something else. But one thing's for sure, I'm not looking to take away the things that make each faction unique, nor am I interested in removing factions. Each faction is, in my eyes, at a certain level of maturity and could use a little more flexing to get there. Obviously some factions will always be more powerful than other factions but that's the nature of balance.

But I would like the game's newer factions, Phoenix, Drac, and OH to be fleshed out a little more and given some more of their own flavor. I'd also like the gulf between the top factions (Rix, Giga, and Belts) and the bottom factions (Phoenix, Drac, and Dreg) to be reduced significantly. I'd also prefer to lessen this gulf by buffing the bottom than nerfing the top.

To give you guys a better idea of how I'd be handling this core, here is a general overall idea of my vision for Allegiance balance:

1- Each faction should have its own unique feel both for the commanders and the pilots.
2- Each faction should have specific reasons to go specific techpaths. A faction should never be in the position where it always must go one particular techpath.
3- Each faction should have specific good and bad matchups. Factions should be counterable by altering playstyle and through command decisions.
4- Attackers should have an inherent advantage over defenders. Turtling isn't fun for anyone.
5- Superior econ should lead to wins.
6- Each combat ship should have a path to victory against each other combat ship. If there isn't a way for figs to beat ints (even if ints have the advantage), one team just ends up getting whored on.

Please note that I'm not saying that these visions aren't currently realized in one way or another (currently, for example, #6 is very generally already done), just that these are the "guiding principles" that I will have when leading the core.

Accomplishing balance will be a large mix of commanding and listening to input from pilots whose opinions I respect. I'm not going to dictatorially change this game. Hell last night I was talking to Drizzo about the relative faction balance and what he and I thought about each of the factions in terms of which are the most powerful. We were in general agreement.
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Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
Shizoku
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Post by Shizoku »

phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Jan 11 2015, 09:40 PM) Noir just basically gave you whore tech. Since you're a whore, you loved that :P Balance wasn't his first goal, but making things stupid fun was his goal.

Ok point taken XD

Don't speak of which you no nothing about. Noir had the faction win %'s all down to about 10% difference, it was by far the most balanced core we've had. Insect and the rest merely ruined a good thing.
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zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

Hopefully I can approach that level of balance.
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Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
Djole88
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Post by Djole88 »

phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Jan 12 2015, 07:06 PM) 1- Each faction should have its own unique feel both for the commanders and the pilots.
2- Each faction should have specific reasons to go specific techpaths. A faction should never be in the position where it always must go one particular techpath.
3- Each faction should have specific good and bad matchups. Factions should be counterable by altering playstyle and through command decisions.
6- Each combat ship should have a path to victory against each other combat ship. If there isn't a way for figs to beat ints (even if ints have the advantage), one team just ends up getting whored on.
Agreed
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Jan 12 2015, 07:06 PM) 4- Attackers should have an inherent advantage over defenders. Turtling isn't fun for anyone.
I am not quite sure what you wanted to say. Attackers do have the advantage.
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Jan 12 2015, 07:06 PM) 5- Superior econ should lead to wins.
Depending on the level you make this relevant I do or don't agree with this.
I mostly don't want making different levels of tech differ more than they do now.

Look... I think you care about the global game balance much and almost (or so it seems, ignore everything I said in this thread if I'm mistaken) don't care about how individual encounters resolve. I sometimes care much more about the latter because, quite honestly, that's a major part of where I get my fun.

Though I do remember you crying about the lrm3 rclick to win thing so I might really be mistaken...
p32 is right though, somebody can always revert what you have done if you foul it up real bad

tl;dr; I am skeptical about what you will do...

P.S. What Vogue said is just a cover for the plot of getting turrets on hvy scouts :P
vogue
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Post by vogue »

True tac isn't op as @#(! anymore. I was more referring to the inability to play certain factions.

No comment on my affiliation with the heavy scout lobby.
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ May 5 2013, 08:35 PM) Vogue is clearly #1 and commanding against him feels like commanding against Spideycw at times... though he lacks that little bit of "I don't care who's on my team or what the factions are, it's going to be a stomp anyways" that Spidey managed to pull off in his heyday.
Deathrender
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Post by Deathrender »

P032 can hand off the core to anyone he wants to.

If he wants P1 to take it, he can. Whether or not he is the most qualified person to do it. He has this going for him:

He wants to do it

He's not a complete idiot and strives for some semblance of balance

No one can be unbiased in core development. Reaching the apex of balance, you might as well invent a $#@!ing hoverboard while you're at it.

If he $#@!s up, keep using Pcore08. No one can stop you. We could all play on RPS is we wanted to.


And final points:

a. Is anyone more qualified than P1 willing to take over?

b. Does P032 want to hand the core dev over to them?


Personally, I think P1's changes sound nice and worth trying. He is willing to fix Phoenix and make it a faction worth playing. He is willing to test buffs and nerfs, and he hasn't said anything about touching my precious Belts.
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Jul 22 2017, 05:58 PM) Mini ac gunner mount was removed because somewhere along the lines we had a core dev that said, "I really hate Terran and want him to be miserable." And all core devs ever since have agreed.
zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

Djole88 wrote:QUOTE (Djole88 @ Jan 12 2015, 10:44 AM) I am not quite sure what you wanted to say. Attackers do have the advantage.
Yes, and I'm going to keep it that way. Not all of my principles require action ;)

QUOTE Depending on the level you make this relevant I do or don't agree with this.
I mostly don't want making different levels of tech differ more than they do now.[/quote]
The different levels of tech will probably not differ all that much. The only real significant tech change I'm going to do is work on SY. I'm not happy with what SY is right now... but that's way down the road.

QUOTE Look... I think you care about the global game balance much and almost (or so it seems, ignore everything I said in this thread if I'm mistaken) don't care about how individual encounters resolve. I sometimes care much more about the latter because, quite honestly, that's a major part of where I get my fun.

Though I do remember you crying about the lrm3 rclick to win thing so I might really be mistaken...[/quote]
Two things:

First of all, if I'm balancing things for the general global overview, the individual encounters will be fine. I'm not going to make ships unfun to fly.

Second of all, my complaints about LRM3 weren't about individual encounters, my complaints about LRM3 (which were founded, acted upon, and P032 also had other changes in the works to lessen LRM3 impact on the game so I was not alone) were based entirely on how games involving LRM3 played out. My complaint was that there was a lack of counterplay to the missile. There is now more counterplay to the missile than their used to be. That's a step in the right direction.

QUOTE P.S. What Vogue said is just a cover for the plot of getting turrets on hvy scouts :P [/quote]
Without revealing too much he's probably going to get his wish. And he might have gotten it either way whether P032 or myself were in charge of the core :whistle:
Deathrender wrote:QUOTE (Deathrender @ Jan 12 2015, 11:10 AM) a. Is anyone more qualified than P1 willing to take over?
No. I'm not unbiased (ofc) but I would say I'm uniquely qualified to be in charge of the core. I worked under Spidey when he had the core, I'm a decent enough commander and a decent enough pilot, and more importantly game design is what I do for fun and someday for profit. I've participated in making games and balancing games many times in the past including but not limited to pen&paper RPGs, card games, and board games.

I'm not even remotely kidding when I say that taking over the core is actually a career move for me in the long run, or when I say my dream job would be to be Mark Rosewater.

QUOTE Personally, I think P1's changes sound nice and worth trying. He is willing to fix Phoenix and make it a faction worth playing. He is willing to test buffs and nerfs, and he hasn't said anything about touching my precious Belts.[/quote]
Actually I have mentioned touching belts ;) I'm fixing their med booster so it's actually an item that does actual things. Which I suppose is a minor perk to an already strong faction, but IMO not an important one.
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Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
ThePhantom032
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Post by ThePhantom032 »

phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Jan 12 2015, 08:25 PM) No. I'm not unbiased (ofc) but I would say I'm uniquely qualified to be in charge of the core.
Definitely.

You're the only one who wants to do it, that makes you unique :P
Still ready to teach anyone who asks nicely whatever they want to know about playing alleg. Contrary to popular opinion I do not eat newbies. Voobs taste much better.
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