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zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

Why would I make a sock puppet account to dumb down my posts?

I assume if you're unwilling to read my posts then your opinion on my posts straight up doesn't matter.
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Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
Archangelus
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Post by Archangelus »

phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Dec 8 2014, 07:47 PM) If you aren't going to read the suggestions you could at least read the opinions of people who HAVE read them.
I did read all of them, I gave u suggestions of what to do, and your answer just was "I dont care if its broken and nobody is gonna use it because the faction is broken".

Giving them more ships that won't change their playstyle, won't solve its problem, sorry. I never said your idea isnt cool, it just, will keep the faction the same way it is now, with more things piled up, that ppl seldomly will get, because the faction is broken in comparison with others. Your special ships will probably end like omni's.
pkk wrote:QUOTE (pkk @ Jul 18 2014, 06:08 AM) Seems like some people forget, that they're guest here and their status can be removed any time.
kaiser33
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Post by kaiser33 »

a ridiculous amount of shield and paper hull, unable to be nanned makes for rushing with 7 bombers instead of 1 bomber and 6 nans :D
zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

Archangelus wrote:QUOTE (Archangelus @ Dec 8 2014, 08:56 PM) I did read all of them, I gave u suggestions of what to do, and your answer just was "I dont care if its broken and nobody is gonna use it because the faction is broken".
What.

You gave no suggestions at all besides "play the faction differently." There is not a single reputable commander who plays right now that thinks Phoenix is ok, it just needs to be played differently.

And I do care if the ships are broken. I started trying to make them underpowered for a reason.
kaiser33 wrote:QUOTE (kaiser33 @ Dec 9 2014, 07:09 AM) a ridiculous amount of shield and paper hull, unable to be nanned makes for rushing with 7 bombers instead of 1 bomber and 6 nans :D
Um, sure. Except that my Peenix can still be nanned because removing nanning takes away a huge portion of what, imo, makes Allegiance the game it is.

There's a few things that you can do in cores and/or game settings that literally break the game. I remember one time we had a 15 v 15 no-pods conquest and that game was frankly ridiculous. It was almost impossible to get any kind of advantage because even if you perfectly repelled an HTT run, the enemy team was literally right back in base ready to launch. While the game was fun at first (yay no spending time in pods!) it became quickly apparent that Allegiance just doesn't work without pods.

Also I'm not advocating "ridiculous shield." Seriously, SS1 is 200 hp. SS1 for this peenix is 260 hp. Compare to, say, the 710 HP IC hvy int vs the 785 HP drac/belters hvy int. Peenix shields, at +30%, would make their ships almost as much tougher than, say, Drac or Belters ships.

Oh except through a magical trick of damage index Peenix combat ships would be a little tougher and their miners would be a lot weaker.
Last edited by zombywoof on Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
Archangelus
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Post by Archangelus »

phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Dec 9 2014, 01:08 PM) You gave no suggestions at all besides "play the faction differently." There is not a single reputable commander who plays right now that thinks Phoenix is ok, it just needs to be played differently.
Then you clearly are the one that isnt reading the posts.

I said at least 2x that removing the pre-requisities for some techs, and getting back assault shields (maybe in a different manner because of playerbase), would be way more better ways, then simply pilling up more ships. :glare:
pkk wrote:QUOTE (pkk @ Jul 18 2014, 06:08 AM) Seems like some people forget, that they're guest here and their status can be removed any time.
zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

First post:
Archangelus wrote:QUOTE (Archangelus @ Dec 5 2014, 08:58 PM) was I the only one that loled at p1´s idea?

No mention of assault shields or, really, anything.
Archangelus wrote:QUOTE (Archangelus @ Dec 6 2014, 11:34 AM) I love you too man. But really dont implement this. The game is already ruined enough with all the kinky modifications ppl implemented throughout all those years. You had an excellent post about how the creators of this game made the first factions very fun and detailed, and making the details differ them. I believe you should start from that. Toying with any player-made faction is asking for your own doom, as they are clearly $#@!ed up. I meant no offense for the creators, because the factions are $#@!in awesomely fun.

Viru summarized phoenix fixings the most, and he didnt even mentioned that with disco balls, peenix is UNSTOOOPAAABLLEEEE.
Second post:

Simply making Phoenix's special tech better (by making it cheaper) is the only suggestion you give here. No mention of assault shields at lal.
Archangelus wrote:QUOTE (Archangelus @ Dec 6 2014, 02:16 PM) Peenix is not boring. Their fun tech is just THAT EXPENSIVE. Like someone said above, if u wanna make it fun, remove transceiver as pre-req for their fun tech, or tie them to less tech. Right now, for any fun tech they use, they need another 2 that most likely wont.
Still no mention of Assault Shields, and still doesn't address the fundamental problem of Phoenix that I, along with other commanders (Vogue and P032 come to mind) have identified. Having no reason to play Phoenix and turning that into playing Phoenix because today you want to have Vanguards simply changes Phoenix from being a 0 dimensional faction to a 1 dimensional faction. Not a solution.
Archangelus wrote:QUOTE (Archangelus @ Dec 7 2014, 07:32 AM) Phoenix did have a direction, it was just removed because in small games it was "unbanlanced". Phoenix in pc isnt the same phoenix as in DN. thats why it server no purpose. Phoenix now is just a broken faction.

Btw I´ve seen you seldomly played peenix. Just by saying it serve no purpose as a commander. Despite its hard learning curve due to their econ and weak early game, their endgame is far better than IC (just as by your comparison). Phoenix and TF were broken in DN because of the way they were played, not because of their perk/nerfs, as it was bios with XRM (per example).
Still no mention of assault shields which haven't existed since 2008 (that was, for those keeping track, almost 7 years ago). Also I used to command Peenix all the time and just use Vanguards. Vanguards got nerfed and now I don't command Peenix anymore. I've never been happy with Peenix being "the vanguard faction" because that's the equivalent of shoehorning GT into being "the PT Bbr faction."
Archangelus wrote:QUOTE (Archangelus @ Dec 7 2014, 09:14 AM) And this is why I say you have no knowledge of how phoenix was played back then. Vanguards, vulcans, lazzor cannons were all fun tech and very useful, despite their expensive costs. But what broke phoenix were the assault bases. Despite the special tech, everysingle ship is a regular one overall. Assault shields werent game breaking until the playerbase became too small to effectively counter it, but the total removal of it, definetly put phoenix way below.
Vulcans, lasers, and discoballs have not been changed since their last DN standing (again, that was 7 years ago). Assault shields haven't lived since longer than that, and this is your first mention of assault shields and you still haven't recommended putting them back.

QUOTE Before trying to tweak things around you should really figure out how the faction used to work. Phoenix right now is just sucky because it has no other way to strive the early game, like it used to. If you wanna tweak something you should start from there, not adding some unuseful ending game tech that wouldnt give any impact at the actual way the faction is played. It will have just more pieces of things that seldomly ppl will get.[/quote]
Again, the faction has remain largely untouched since 2008 with a few notable exceptions, none of which had anything to do with the early game (Vanguards are just slightly worse than they used to be). There was, iirc, a small econ nerf moving their 1.1 yield to 1.0. You also still have not advocated re-adding assault shields.

Never mind that you are relying on an unsubstantiated courtier's reply that I "simply don't know enough."

To this I responded,
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Dec 7 2014, 10:06 PM) The fact that they once had broken pieces of tech that were hideously overpowered doesn't change that right now Phoenix is beyond useless.
My point here, if it was lost, was that how Phoenix used to work doesn't have any bearing on how it should work in the future. Otherwise we can pull hvy boost, make galvs only affect capships instead of bases, get rid of figbees, XRM, and pulse probes, and also remove every faction released after Rix. It's an appeal to tradition fallacy, and I'm calling you on it.

You, notwithstanding your lawyer roots, are quick to respond with a straw man:
Archangelus wrote:QUOTE (Archangelus @ Dec 8 2014, 02:16 PM) Giving them ridiculously broken pieces of tech that won't affect their actual problems wont change it either.
I'm not advocating giving them ridiculously broken pieces of tech. I'm advocating giving them special tech and returning them to their roots of being a "shield" faction but without the game breaking element of assault shields (and assault bases, I guess).
Archangelus wrote:QUOTE (Archangelus @ Dec 8 2014, 08:56 PM) I did read all of them, I gave u suggestions of what to do, and your answer just was "I dont care if its broken and nobody is gonna use it because the faction is broken".
Unless I'm hideously mistaken in stating my Phoenix position, this isn't even remotely what I've been saying.

QUOTE Giving them more ships that won't change their playstyle, won't solve its problem, sorry. I never said your idea isnt cool, it just, will keep the faction the same way it is now, with more things piled up, that ppl seldomly will get, because the faction is broken in comparison with others. Your special ships will probably end like omni's.[/quote]
Even if they end like omnis they are a tiny drop in the bucket of what I'm trying to do. Yes, the ships take up the majority of the numbers in my post, but that's because new ships require a rather ridiculous amount of numbers.

But none of that changes the fact that your plan is:
Archangelus wrote:QUOTE (Archangelus @ Dec 9 2014, 02:22 PM) I said at least 2x that removing the pre-requisities for some techs, and getting back assault shields (maybe in a different manner because of playerbase), would be way more better ways, then simply pilling up more ships. :glare:

Basically your plan is that instead of having 3 special ships that Phoenix should really only have 1 special ship. And this plan is better because... that's where you stop giving reasons. On the other hand, I have stated:
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Dec 4 2014, 03:10 PM) I get it, you really, really like flying vanguards. But from a design standpoint if the only thing exceptional about Phoenix are that they get vanguards (and maybe some random durdle tech like laser blossoms or vulcan cannons or hyper boost) then the only reason to play phoenix is to get Vanguards. That means that every time someone picks Phoenix they're either playing a very, very @#(!ty version of supremacy/expansion/tac or they're going Vanguards (or in your case both for some inexplicable reason) which is incredibly boring to command and incredibly boring to command against because they do the same thing every time.
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Dec 6 2014, 10:45 PM) Phoenix is by far the most vanilla faction in the game and it doesn't have a real "direction." It feels more like someone was testing the limits of what could be accomplished in ICE than someone was trying to design a faction for general consumption. Almost all of its faction modifiers are 1. For $#@!'s sake, the faction's defining feature is its ship models which look completely unlike anything else in Allegiance. When you think about Dreg you don't think about how their ships look, you think about how they're FAST and how their missiles hit like a truck. TF's defined by how slow their ships are. Rix, by the way they turn and their lack of missiles.


Phoenix used to be "the shield faction" but there were all kinds of problems with assault shields and the removal of nanning and it just didn't make for good gameplay. But making Vanguards cheaper wouldn't change the fact that there's no good reason to play Phoenix. Even if Vanguards were strong and a viable solo-techpath because you made them cheaper or better or whatever, Phoenix still would suck as a faction because there is literally no reason to play them aside from getting Vanguards.
And all of your criticism of my ideas for Phoenix is based on the two ships which aren't vanguards while you make no mention of this:
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Dec 4 2014, 12:08 PM) Faction Global Attributes:


Hull will be nerfed to .85
Shields will be perked to 1.3
Shield repair will be perked to 1.05
He Yeild will be perked to 1.1
Cost will be reduced to .9
Signature will be nerfed to .9
Ripcord will be nerfed to .85
Accel will be nerfed to .95

Faction Specials:

INTs and HVY Ints have 75 less HP before faction modifiers
Can build Transceivers which cost $15000 and provide $500/min in paydays and build on He3 rocks. Do not require techbase.

Phoenix New Tech:

Mini-shield 1, 2:

Grants 50, 100 HP with Small Shield regeneration speed. +.25 sig, can be mounted on SFs, INTs, or Figs.
In short, since your sockpuppet account will probably hilariously inaccurately summarize my post again:

1) You've not said @#(! about assault shields being brought back at all nor have you given any ideas on how they could be reimplemented
2) I have refuted the idea that all Peenix needs to be fun is for Vanguards to be popular again several times
3) Your response is a strange flurry of logical fallacies, albeit informal fallacies.
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Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
P1 TLDR
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Post by P1 TLDR »

Forget the new ships, they're not that important. What I really was trying to do was make Phoenix a "shield faction" again.
P1 TLDR
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Post by P1 TLDR »

Forget the new ships, they're not that important. What I really was trying to do was make Phoenix a "shield faction" again.
Vortrog
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Post by Vortrog »

Holy broken keyboard batman!
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kaiser33
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Post by kaiser33 »

well if you want allegiance to be played in the same way i'ts been played for years then dont change anything at all and make another generic base faction copy paste or in other words, leave it as it is . :mad:
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