WeedCore 03

Discussion / Announcement area for WeedCore development.
Weedman
Posts: 2137
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 7:00 am

Post by Weedman »

hah

the new faction should have been disabled.
QUOTE Once engaged 13 and a half Dreg Heavy Ints (at the same time) with an IC Int and emerged in a heavy int with 2 mini 3 and 1 mini dis and all foes destroyed
--- QUOTE (spideycw @ Apr 1 2009, 01:53 PM) Definition of wtfpwn: Weedman in an int[/quote]
Lordus Weedicus II•Uses TS but can be difficult to understand due to the fact has never been sober•Expert int whore (without non-standard use of strafe buttons)•Gains skill increase when playing with Aarmstrong or former members of TRA•Expert miner D (ability to aim)•Can be trusted to run your economy•One of the half dozen or so game changers•Average Stacker
<.<
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:56 am

Post by <.< »

Lol. Tier 2 enh figs have just as high dps as tier 2 ints before missiles with better modifiers, similar top speeds and the patented 8 second rip.

Fighters were already monsters at miner killing, the only problem was reaching the miner. With the boost fixes putting them nearly on par with ints during the econ deciding parts of the game that's more then enough advantage seeing as you can already assemble a run from across the map in 8 seconds and abandon one just as quickly. Also keep in mind when you lower util damage from 0.25 to 0.20 that's not a 5% nerf, it's a 20% nerf (which is why you're getting such absurd numbers for new time to solo kill a miner (which was already painful till adv exp)).

Basically you've made it so an opening fig can kill a miner without reloading if they brought df and an opening int has to use a full 3 racks (4 with no kb or imperfect aim or any d at all) over the course of almost a full minute. For added balance they travel at similar boosting speeds (>20% difference over mid-long distances?) except one has to find his way home and the other one rips back to 1k from base. Hell in a basic int now you'll never reach a miner with enough ammo to kill it, and if you did it'd eventually outpace you. WTF man.

Enh figs will honest to goodness match ints in speed, do more dps vs every target (and more efficiently at that) BEFORE missiles and of course be able to rip. That's before looking at what they already have going for them: scan range, 600m shots and faster normal flight. You cannot out-nan them like you already couldn't and they can outright kill your defense if they feel like it.

No decent sup team will ever let exp get adv again. I know supremacy needed to be made stronger and expansion pulled in line, but all you did is recreate expansion, but this time with missiles.

I'm all for the med hull and nan vs mg changes though. It's just too simple to spike a hvy bomber/htt with exp presently which leads to a lot of turtling and "don't resign yet, I want to whore" games. Of course this makes things like Belts bbr rush even more powerful, but everyone will be too busy playing IC sup to care.
Last edited by <.< on Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Weedman
Posts: 2137
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 7:00 am

Post by Weedman »

stop crying

do you even look in ice, I don't think you have

i've yet to see a real game where ints got dominated

I have not changed anything about booster 2, that is nothing new
I actually increased ripcord time of enhanced fighters
Interceptors and Heavy Ints actually have the same amount of fuel, meaning their tier 2 ints are still good enough, ints were too good at boosting hitting 350 mps in no time, carrying speed
Where as enhanced fighters have less fuel than adv fighters
Enhanced fighters are "good"

Yes I know sup is better at killing miners, I'm the one who brought it up.

I will concede the utility hull change, you're right, it's 20%.
20% is marginal. I have a kb of 33. Now I have +13% damage vs utility opposed to -20%. It means nothing. It gives factions with no starting lt ints a chance to mine a little bit. Miners can still be swarmed.
You are coming at me like I ruined the entire game because you can't kill 6 nans and solo miners with a Lt Int and MG1.

Anyway.

I've thought about reducing gat damage versus utility hull. It may happen. Again it would be minor. The thing is, enhanced figs have 3 guns, and 3 gat2 eat a miner up. It would be different if they only had 2 guns.
Last edited by Weedman on Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
QUOTE Once engaged 13 and a half Dreg Heavy Ints (at the same time) with an IC Int and emerged in a heavy int with 2 mini 3 and 1 mini dis and all foes destroyed
--- QUOTE (spideycw @ Apr 1 2009, 01:53 PM) Definition of wtfpwn: Weedman in an int[/quote]
Lordus Weedicus II•Uses TS but can be difficult to understand due to the fact has never been sober•Expert int whore (without non-standard use of strafe buttons)•Gains skill increase when playing with Aarmstrong or former members of TRA•Expert miner D (ability to aim)•Can be trusted to run your economy•One of the half dozen or so game changers•Average Stacker
<.<
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:56 am

Post by <.< »

Weedman wrote:QUOTE (Weedman @ Mar 28 2013, 05:41 AM) stop crying

do you even look in ice, I don't think you have

i've yet to see a real game where ints got dominated

I have not changed anything about booster 2, that is nothing new
I actually increased ripcord time of enhanced fighters
Interceptors and Heavy Ints actually have the same amount of fuel, meaning their tier 2 ints are still good enough, ints were too good at boosting hitting 350 mps in no time, carrying speed
Where as enhanced fighters have less fuel than adv fighters
Enhanced fighters are "good"

Yes I know sup is better at killing miners, I'm the one who brought it up.

I will concede the utility hull change, you're right, it's 20%.
20% is marginal. I have a kb of 33. Now I have +13% damage vs utility opposed to -20%. It means nothing. It gives factions with no starting lt ints a chance to mine a little bit. Miners can still be swarmed.
You are coming at me like I ruined the entire game because you can't kill 6 nans and solo miners with a Lt Int and MG1.

Anyway.

I've thought about reducing gat damage versus utility hull. It may happen. Again it would be minor. The thing is, enhanced figs have 3 guns, and 3 gat2 eat a miner up. It would be different if they only had 2 guns.
20% is not marginal, and it's far from an intended minor nerf of 5%. With the change 25kb puts you where you used to be with 0kb. When I'm on miner o, especially early miner o I usually have 0kb because it mostly fails and it's never worth podding home if it does... 33kb isn't realistic at all, look at stats screens... it's something the average player doesn't get in a game or only has near the end. Yes I'm aware you aren't the average player. With current changes one tier 2 fig will kill a miner a second or two slower then three tier 2 ints.

No it wouldn't really be different if figs had two guns. DF alone is what makes figs so amazing at killing miners. The good multipliers and 3 guns certainly add to that, especially mid game... but they ruin miners if they can just reach them at any point in the game. I don't really have any problems with that though.

No booster 2 wasn't changed, but adding afterboost changes boost 2. Especially if you made boost 2 unequippable on ints (which would also lessen the appeal of dual teching with sup).

And yeah maybe I've overreacted, it just seem like in attempting to fix sup you addressed every problem/inequality... at once. You're probably right about carrying speed on boosters, I'll have to see it in action.

Fundamentally I'd like to see sup and exp scale a bit more evenly throughout the game. CC Sup has always been good mid game and then been steamrolled late game... it looks like you're trying to make sup better overall (happy to see hvy boost back) to fix end game and countering that by worsening enh figs a little, but all the changes together don't do that. That said I really shouldn't be doing what I hate and commenting on balance before getting a chance to play... so I won't say anymore and I look forward to giving your Sup a try.
SunTzu
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:05 pm
Location: Asgård

Post by SunTzu »

Revert all the tac changes for GA's.

Seriously. WTF.
---
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Feb 15 2013, 01:52 PM) In a lot of ways, Allegiance is like the Radio: it's all `am and `fm.
zombywoof
Posts: 6522
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:59 am
Location: Over the Rainbow

Post by zombywoof »

      wrote:QUOTE (      @ Mar 28 2013, 05:08 PM) 20% is not marginal, and it's far from an intended minor nerf of 5%. With the change 25kb puts you where you used to be with 0kb. When I'm on miner o, especially early miner o I usually have 0kb because it mostly fails and it's never worth podding home if it does... 33kb isn't realistic at all, look at stats screens... it's something the average player doesn't get in a game or only has near the end. Yes I'm aware you aren't the average player. With current changes one tier 2 fig will kill a miner a second or two slower then three tier 2 ints.
Happy fun times, a chance for P1 to crunch numbers!

(Seriously dumb people saying things that I can easily refute is fun, especially when people come in with their "numbers don't matter" arguments)

Gigacorp ENH Fig vs Gigacorp INT with tier2 tech attacking Rixian Unity basic miner: (If you can't figure out why I picked these factions you're a moron)

26 shots/second, 5 damage per shot
= 130 dps * PW/EW Damage 1 = 143/s


Mini2 Int: 28.6 dps vs Hull, 71.5 dps vs Shield
Gat2 Enh Fig: 60 dps vs hull, 60 dps vs shield
Med shield 1: 300 HP, -5 dps
Miner hull: 950

TTK Int: 40 seconds
TTK Int Before Nerf: 32.5 seconds

TTK Fig, no DF: 24 seconds
TTK Fig, 4 DF2: 16 seconds

Basically your fighter can kill a miner 4 seconds faster than 2 ints can kill a miner.

QUOTE No it wouldn't really be different if figs had two guns. DF alone is what makes figs so amazing at killing miners. The good multipliers and 3 guns certainly add to that, especially mid game... but they ruin miners if they can just reach them at any point in the game. I don't really have any problems with that though.[/quote]
"Good" multipliers? It's .5. .5 is not good considering gat does @#(! damage in the first place... and DF is also .5 against util hull. DF deals the same DPS as the 3 gats, actually.
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Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
zombywoof
Posts: 6522
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:59 am
Location: Over the Rainbow

Post by zombywoof »

Oh, also, LXY Bbrs don't have an "x" next to them they have an "h" next to them (on the icon) :(
Image
Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
Spunkmeyer
Posts: 2013
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:00 am
Location: Contact me regarding: CC, Slayer and AllegWiki.

Post by Spunkmeyer »

Weed,

If you nerf gat vs miner hull (which I think would be beneficial overall) would you give scouts a gat variation of their own with the current anti-utl damage or would you just say they shouldn't be any good at miner killing anyway (and maybe just give them more ammo)?

Another idea is giving std ints triple mg and nerfing other stats to light int level to compensate. It would make balance adjustments across the board much easier (int vs fig, int vs miner, int vs caps)


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Weedman
Posts: 2137
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 7:00 am

Post by Weedman »

Well, I have not really thought about it too much yet

Obviously fighters are much better now compared to ints at killing cons and miners in terms of damage per second, to compete, ints will need to work together in pairs or more.
But fighters are also easier to shoot down.
That said it's relatively easy for an enh fighter to solo a miner with the gat damage as it is.
When sup is adv and you have all the toys, the sup turtle can be difficult to crack, sometimes.

IF gat damage modifier versus utility would be changed, it may change from 0.5, to 0.4, which is -20% in terms of effectiveness vs utility

In my opinion, 20% doesn't mean much, again, KB comes into play, and of course missile damage. What it does is give a defender an extra 5 seconds maybe, to save the miner or con.

I don't want scouts to be useless. They should be fun to use. I don't think they need more ammo though. They already carry more than enough. One possibility would be to add one extra missile per rack.
Basic would have 3 missiles instead of 2
Adv would have 4 instead of 3
Heavy scout would have 5 instead of 4
(dumbfires/seeker)

As far as ints go, the Int lover in me would love 3 guns on light ints, but I don't want to fundamentally change how the game works too much.
Last edited by Weedman on Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
QUOTE Once engaged 13 and a half Dreg Heavy Ints (at the same time) with an IC Int and emerged in a heavy int with 2 mini 3 and 1 mini dis and all foes destroyed
--- QUOTE (spideycw @ Apr 1 2009, 01:53 PM) Definition of wtfpwn: Weedman in an int[/quote]
Lordus Weedicus II•Uses TS but can be difficult to understand due to the fact has never been sober•Expert int whore (without non-standard use of strafe buttons)•Gains skill increase when playing with Aarmstrong or former members of TRA•Expert miner D (ability to aim)•Can be trusted to run your economy•One of the half dozen or so game changers•Average Stacker
zombywoof
Posts: 6522
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:59 am
Location: Over the Rainbow

Post by zombywoof »

Something generally feels off about miners in this core.

Also I think carriers were nerfed a bit too much you might want to give them some of that HP back. Lone scouts are a threat to carriers now which is just weird.
Image
Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
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