Can Sup have its own endgame?

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zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

Sheriff Metz wrote:QUOTE (Sheriff Metz @ Feb 21 2013, 02:46 PM) Hvy bombers/aleph res really should be in sup
hvy bombers are kind of a joke, too, since really the point in getting hvy bombers is for xrm/aleph res use, but XRMs are horrible. which basically means that aleph res costs like 15k because that's really the reason you're buying hvy bombers.

give hvy bombers a 3rd turret spot/more ammo/more hull if they're going to be worth that investment. or make them much cheaper.
it makes sense to have bombers in garr because you can use bombers with any tech path...hvy bombers are for sup. period.
Another option would be to give hvy bbrs heavy armor rather than medium armor. The problem with bombing right now is it's fairly easy to spike, nan3 heals 148/s and mini3 heavies deal 170/s. If you move hvy bbrs to heavy armor, it becomes 111/s vs 113/s. Spiking the bbr is still possible if you have more ints, but equal ints vs equal nans you'll definitely want to be shooting the nans and not the bbr.

Hvy bbrs would be worse against sup and tac I suppose... but if sup keeps figbees (which I believe it should) then it creates an interesting dynamic. If you're vs Tac or Exp you have the option of bombing away. Against sup you get figbees instead. Or you could fiddle with DM04 and drop the damage vs heavy armor to .75. It would make sniper, hunter, dumbfire, heavy plasgen, and seeker worse against capships. Then again, since Tac has killers and should be killing miners and Sup has disruptor and galv, that shouldn't matter in the slightest.

My thoughts:

Heavy bombers get heavy armor.
DM 04 goes to .75 vs heavy hull from 1.33.

(Note: this will nerf DF spiking fairly substantially as well now that I think about it. DF spiking has nothing to do with nan damage (or rather, very little to do with nan damage) and hitting DF damage to bbrs by .25 would require 5/4ths the DFs it does now.)
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Mastametz
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Post by Mastametz »

There are enough ways to avoid spike damage that I would not buff the durability of hvy bombers more than marginally, if at all, otherwise hvy bombers will be unkillable when used by anyone with half a brain.
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zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

I'm not sure how they're unkillable. An eyed 3k run gives your team plenty of time to camp an aleph and pod scouts. If you have mini3 heavies and you have a hard time killing scouts then you deserve to lose. And THIS plan encourages hvybbrs + nan as a teamwork-based strategy while your plan (3rd turret, more hull) does absolutely nothing except make the spike process last a tad longer.
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Mastametz
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Post by Mastametz »

There's no reason you should ever be driving a bomber into a camped aleph.
it sure sounds like you're trying to have bombers buffed so they live through driving through aleph camps

no.

use an aleph res, distraction bomb, clear probes, push a con, draw a camp then rip to another aleph, tp probe drop into a sector

anything.

bombers don't need to be able to survive aleph camps.
you can push a carrier in to absorb mines and then drive *through* the carrier to get a bit away from a camp, which will work for some things, but not against mini3 hvies, anyway
even capships don't survive aleph camps, why would bombers be able to? that doesn't do anything for promoting "teamwork"

just go play belters
Last edited by Mastametz on Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

Again I'm not convinced that bbrs with heavy armor would be "unkillable." "Unspikeable" sure, but again, at that point you have to STFN. I'll ask you again, do you often find it difficult to pod scouts when you're flying a mini3 heavy?
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Mastametz
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Post by Mastametz »

a bomber uneyed flying full speed through an aleph with like 10 nans towards a base at a reasonable range will not allow for enough time to kill nans before the base dies
if bombers cannot be spiked then you're making it an automatic win when you bomb if you bring enough nans, no matter how many defenders there are
and then it becomes a game of just...whoever bombs first with enough nans, wins
it is enough that a scout can ram a bomber out of the path of a dumbfire spike or an int ram
it's just that whatever team is dependent on bombing to win is almost always the losing team (the weaker team) and then once bombing fails they think bombing is underpowered
good teams have no problems bombing with the needed tech
and the implementation of nan3 is huge. nan3 and aleph res are rarely utilized. and extremely influential.

bombers have been fundamentally the same forever and now they have nan3 support AND a one-sided aleph res for use. that is more than enough.
I just think hvy bombers should be cheaper, really, since the only functional purpose they serve is to equip aleph res.
Last edited by Mastametz on Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

Sheriff Metz wrote:QUOTE (Sheriff Metz @ Feb 22 2013, 01:16 PM) a bomber uneyed flying full speed through an aleph with like 10 nans towards a base at a reasonable range will not allow for enough time to kill nans before the base dies
And there's no way to stop this at all!

QUOTE if bombers cannot be spiked then you're making it an automatic win when you bomb if you bring enough nans, no matter how many defenders there are[/quote]
If your opponent manages to get 13 people on a bomb run that you don't see coming, you deserve to lose.

QUOTE and then it becomes a game of just...whoever bombs first with enough nans, wins[/quote]
Bombs uneyed first with enough nans. That seems... fair.


To think that YOU'RE one of the people who complained about the game being dumped down.
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Mastametz
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Post by Mastametz »

with proper tele placement/use of tp probes it's not hard to get a large bomb run uneyed. or at least close enough to an aleph before being eyed that there's no time to camp.

lobby for whatever you want, really. if something gets buffed I'll just exploit it until it gets nerfed again, anyway.
i have absolutely no issues bombing.

if you expect to be eyed, use an aleph res
if you don't, then don't
especially with current team sizes, it's not that hard at all to mount an uneyed bomb run

with that logic, a large htt run should auto-win every time. and it's much more different to mount a successful htt run because any int escort can't rip around at will, and the htt has - at least at some point - drive at the base to fly into a green door (which makes it incredibly easy to spike/ram/prox)

so if we're going to make hvy bombers unspikeable, the same will definitely have to be done to htts

and i'm sure you don't want that
Last edited by Mastametz on Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

Sheriff Metz wrote:QUOTE (Sheriff Metz @ Feb 22 2013, 02:42 PM) with proper tele placement/use of tp probes it's not hard to get a large bomb run uneyed. or at least close enough to an aleph before being eyed that there's no time to camp.
Are you aware of how simple it is to probe against TP2 runs? If you're not caught out of position and we're looking at a 15 v 15 it shouldn't be too much to spare a pilot to watch for the TP probe.

As for TP cons, how crappy is your map control that you're letting them push TPs next to your bases without knowing where those TPs are and probing those sectors? Maybe you should spend less time bombing and more time attacking the enemy's miners so they can't afford Adv Sup, Starbase, Heavy Bombers, TP2, and I presume Galv adv figs.

QUOTE lobby for whatever you want, really. if something gets buffed I'll just exploit it until it gets nerfed again, anyway.
i have absolutely no issues bombing.[/quote]
How effective do you feel bombing is vs mini2 ints? It sounds like you think it's a win button? That bomb runs can't be stopped even if they're eyed?

QUOTE if you expect to be eyed, use an aleph res
if you don't, then don't
especially with current team sizes, it's not that hard at all to mount an uneyed bomb run[/quote]
So it's your contention that heavy bombers are perfectly balanced as they are?

QUOTE with that logic, a large htt run should auto-win every time. and it's much more different to mount a successful htt run because any int escort can't rip around at will, and the htt has - at least at some point - drive at the base to fly into a green door (which makes it incredibly easy to spike/ram/prox)[/quote]
Pardon me, but I don't think you understand what logic is. Let me try breaking it down for you:

If a 15 man bomb run encounters a 15 man mini3 heavy defense, I fully expect that, over the course of a 4k walk, the 15 ints will be able to destroy 12 nans and 1 bomber with 2 turrets. If we fail? Then we deserve to lose. The odds are even better with a small prox cloud, and that's assuming they enter the sector uneyed.

Do you know how many ABs it takes to kill an advanced techbase? If it's AB2, it takes 6. If you have KB it's 5. Do you know how long it takes to walk 3k at an average speed of 100 m/s? 30 seconds. Do you know how long it takes to kill a scout with 3 mini3? It certainly doesn't take *me* much more than a second and I'm fairly sure you're better than I am, aren't you? Do you know what 1 * 13 is? I'm beginning to suspect you don't. Do you know how long it takes to fire 5 AB missiles from a heavy bbr with AB3?

QUOTE so if we're going to make hvy bombers unspikeable, the same will definitely have to be done to htts[/quote]
This is a slippery slope fallacy. By their nature they are considerably stealthier than any bomb run will ever be and HTTs, by definition, can have heavy interceptors flying cover for them. Bombers and transports aren't comparable tech any more than SBs and FBs are the same thing or Figs and Ints are the same thing.

But since you asked, yes. I would prefer if HTTs weren't spikeable. The fact that you can have 5 ints defending against 10 people on a run with "end game" tech and have a 50/50 shot of succeeding is stupid. It's stupid because all it does is lend to useless whoring and a boring game for anyone who doesn't have mini3 heavies.

QUOTE and i'm sure you don't want that[/quote]
You should be less sure of what I want.
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Mastametz
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Post by Mastametz »

Bombing is mostly easy against any tech at any tech level, against t3 it becomes difficult, but doable. make bombing easier and it just becomes too easy.

do you know how easy it is to be creative enough with bombing to make it work? it's easy. don't be a pussy.
Last edited by Mastametz on Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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