belter bomb runs are too powerful

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Drizzo
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Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:00 am

Post by Drizzo »

I did smush the RT-gang fairly handily with giga exp vs belter bombers. I may have lost one somewhere along the line. Still, I lose maybe 1-2 games for every 20-30 I comm so I'm okay with that.
cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Oct 16 2010, 02:48 AM) Interceptors are fun because without one, Drizzo would be physically incapable of entering a sector.
boe
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:41 pm

Post by boe »

Sheriff Metz wrote:QUOTE (Sheriff Metz @ Sep 20 2012, 12:01 AM) carriers are overpowered in small games. it's not a core balance issue, it's a team size issue.
I disagree... small game like below 5v5...
* conpushing is too simple
* bombrushing is too simple
* solo minerkilling is too simple
* - usually nice commanders delay all these for the sake of getting a bigger game later.

Carriers you can just oversmart or et your own, they dont directly kill your miner.
It's also illadvised to waste time killing Carriers when it's not really nessesary..
harass their miner instead and move u'r miners to other sector.

It's a different game than 10v10.ish.. which i can command 8-16 times a month @ weekends only !!!
So no wonder im so bad commander.
Im sick of commanding below 5v5,
but now even these don't happen on EU primetime.. this sux.
Sheriff Metz wrote:QUOTE (Sheriff Metz @ Sep 20 2012, 12:01 AM) it's a core balance issue when it can take anywhere from 2 to 10 times as many pilots to defend against something
than it does it execute it at any team sizes
It's command issue when commander does not order his team to split up into Offence and Defence..
Everyone are automatcally to defence.
... A really stupid team could camp an aleph without peeking it for 5 minutes, iv seen this shiet.
It's how everyboday are used to react to bombing... they all asuume "ALL IN bombings".
I love that tactics of this game are evolving... Adabt or be beaten.
And theres that.. 1 ppl can d vs 2 ppl belter bombrun.
The clogging up of 10 ppl on defence @ alephs on 2ppl bombrun.. its just how u play it.

And theres this.. it's like people dont read eachoter postings on this topic...
QUOTE ...i somehow soloed xJ bombrun with a Fig once..
So a ratio of 1 Fig defending on 2 ppl attack sounds fun..[/quote]


So in the cirmustance enemy team has 2 or 4 pilots who can pull of this:
1)
Sheriff Metz wrote:QUOTE (Sheriff Metz @ Sep 20 2012, 12:01 AM) can be reliably rammed to avoid spikes and prox EVERY time, and can change paths/cross sectors in seconds to avoid a known camp
(and can survive camps anyway) and only takes 2 pilots.
Your team needs this:
2)
Max 2ppl who can derail taht 2ppl enemy bombing crew.
You making your point that it's too hard.. but iv done it solo.. it aint impossible.
Not tryng to say its super easy, because you need probes to see them coming.
And that someone defending has to know what enemy is up to and ready all the game.
It also involves killing the enemy sanc, to delay their next bombing.
The rest of the team must either successfully kill enemy miners or bases.

This requirement was not fullfilled in your PT bbr game.
We had 0 Offence. And everyone was on defence.
Sheriff Metz wrote:QUOTE (Sheriff Metz @ Sep 20 2012, 12:01 AM) or pt bombers.
PT was a nice try but it has to hit 1.st time, because it turns so slow and has no
2.nd chancge.. which actually makes it suck for this.

Hmm what else.. SC drones ?
Dumbfire ?
Ramming that bbr just the right speed so u survive ?
(Its ungunned, and the nan wont shoot u anyway so it's their weakness duh.)

Sheriff Metz wrote:QUOTE (Sheriff Metz @ Sep 20 2012, 12:01 AM) the closest comparison is probably a tf bomb run with tf having the highest accel, and light boosting scouts.
they are of no such concern.
Good you brought that up. Its even deadlyer than Belter bombings.
* TF bbr frontgun makes it also a rammkillers nightmare.
* TF can get dual NAN and lt-boost as you said.
I once went TF bomber tech.. I did "all in" bombruns, as my team near 5v5-ish i guess..
was not smart enought to split up themselves and i had no time to explain complicated stuff.
Well we won and to me it seemed a cheese.. My tech was GS, Hvy bbr, Hvy Scouts (with sup).

Why wont u see this so much ?
Asky anyone who likes TF sup ?..

lol TF going with Figs it usually loses to any other faction EXP force Bomb/HTT.
belt is already proven faction known to win Exp with SUP/TAC only.
TF econ is also crippled in cc15.. and it was not great cc14 either.
Belter's are better in that regard also.
So guess what's xJ-s next favourite faction ?
Sheriff Metz wrote:QUOTE (Sheriff Metz @ Sep 20 2012, 12:19 AM) Games commanded by me, personally, have the highest win% vs belters bomb runs, so you can suck on my short dick
Im just saing.. PFFF. Like how would i check that ?
I haven't seen you command vs belters that much..
all i saw this mont was GT vs Belt, and GT lost. So the win% is 0%.

I could say i have defended vs small game bombruns successfully.
(Well when i have scout in team)
Small games tend to have many newbies.
It's especially weird when both teams bombrush. :)
Once i AB'd enemy bomber.. game over for them lol.
Well mostly this fun is denied, because it's considered LAME.

And it's extremely LAME when someone call's this valid tactic LAME
only because they mostly play weekend 10v10ish games and then just leave.


There are tons of stuff that should be changed and tested..
like..

*Im for the idea to make ramming harder.
*Im for the idea to make Belter bombers weaker or caltrop deadlyer.
*Against the idea to make Belter bombers slower.
*Im for the idea to revive Belters EXP.. make it actually viable.
*Im for the idea to make Belters economy sligthly slower or to get less money.
*Im for the idea to revive Dreg by making them less expensive or giving them times better ships/weapons for that money they pay.

But how do we ever test them ?
(weekend times only ? = 2 slow)
I mean EU primetime seems so dead.
This game is even played daily ?
WTF! forum has more people online than the game..
Close down the site again !
We had games when the forums were down !

Also kill the "All Alleg".. i have not seen a rise in conq games after this toy was released.
Game counts seem to be falling.
ChaoticStorm
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Post by ChaoticStorm »

QUOTE I disagree... small game like below 5v5...
* conpushing is too simple
* bombrushing is too simple
* solo minerkilling is too simple
* - usually nice commanders delay all these for the sake of getting a bigger game later.[/quote]
Actually the standard definition of a smallgame is below 10 v.s 10 (which is where balance falls apart in most cases), but yes i do agree that these are too simple but thats a team size/map size problem.

QUOTE Carriers you can just oversmart or et your own, they dont directly kill your miner.
It's also illadvised to waste time killing Carriers when it's not really nessesary..
harass their miner instead and move u'r miners to other sector.[/quote]

Here i'm going to ignore your horrible english. The reason why a carrier is an issue is that, regardless of what you have said it MUST die if it threatens safe sectors. Boe since you command you know what these are, sectors which the enemy have no easy access to in which (except v.s tac) you may mine freely.
Why is this an issue? Carriers are A tough and b. allow thr enemy to operate away from their bases, such as a sector near the enrmy miners from which you may totally ravage an econ with little effort. A carrier can eye miners, getting eyed gets them killed. ANd you can't kill the carrier, not in a smallgame (belts is even worse).
The thing is that a carrier requires teamwork to take down, but none to use effectively. A lone fighter can in smallgame kill multiple miners, sure you can move miners away from it but then you can't get that he3 which has $#@!ed up your game unless you play on high cash setts (which is detrimental to game quality in itself by making factions like belts EVEN better)

QUOTE It's how everyboday are used to react to bombing... they all asuume "ALL IN bombings".[/quote]
Sadly what you call "All in bombing" is actually closer to instinct to give it a name, back when players on average were better bombing was harder. You had to take EVERY chance to roll and kill more bases take more map, in fact carriers which i mentioned above also have the problem of in smallgames of allowing you to just sending it across the map ,even without map control, difficult to kill so you can hit miners which you shouldn't be able to hit (because you $#@!ed yourself by letting yourself be outexpanded). But back on topic if the bomber can roll and could win the game then it should roll, its just that there aren't , many good bombers or even $#@!ing nans playing. I mean when do you see a damn nan train these days? You said tactics are changing but they aren't the players are they are getting worse and previously invalid tactics are becoming more viable. Consider alleg tactics like how you develop aim, it only gets more refined unless the varibles change (which they haven't to much extent belts bombers where always this good).

QUOTE And theres that.. 1 ppl can d vs 2 ppl belter bombrun.[/quote]
Depends on the pilots, that said a rammed belter bomber is faster than a tf fighter can go. But you see that that bomber if rammed right is going 200mps, and unless you place your bases stupidly far from alephs (greater than 4-5k is shooting yourself in the balls) it will get to your base fast, you can't kill it (normally) with prox and a decent na will live long enough for the bomber to reach the base.
QUOTE The clogging up of 10 ppl on defence @ alephs on 2ppl bombrun..[/quote]
I dare say i agree with this statement despite the fact is not a statement but a accusation with no grounds, the problem is that belts bomb runs are a deadly force I like belts but i don't like the cheesy @#(! thats going down with the faction right now.

Did the best i could to answer, now boe can you learn to either write in english or use spellcheck?
blake420
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Post by blake420 »

lets start brain storming solutions instead of arugeing over who has the most @#(! on there dick.

IMO eather of two things need to be done.

a: lower hull for belts bombers to compensate for there speed/agility.

b: make belts faction less agile again.

if your not playing or trying to contribute to bettering allegiance GET THE $#@! OUT.
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Drizzo
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Post by Drizzo »

There is a solution. Get better.

Having problems with belters bomb runs? Go rix run a minimalist 4 sector econ and get hvy ints. A bomber moving 100+mps is just fast moving KB for a hvy int that you can have in 13-14 minutes.

Don't know how to run an economy? Learn. It's easier than ever now how to figure out how miners work with smaller game sizes and a bar that tells you if they're full or not.

Can't aim? Learn to prox.

Prox not working? Get prox2. I've yet to see prox2 fail to kill anything smaller than a capship or con outright.

Can't aim and can't prox? Go dreg sup and learn how to sit behind an aleph for a bomber that's going to travel in a straight line for you to shove dumbfires into.

There are so many solutions to belters' bombing. So many solutions that can be carried out by one person that's good enough to carry them out.
cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Oct 16 2010, 02:48 AM) Interceptors are fun because without one, Drizzo would be physically incapable of entering a sector.
Mastametz
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Location: Stanwood, WA

Post by Mastametz »

Doc Izzo wrote:QUOTE (Doc Izzo @ Sep 20 2012, 08:30 PM) There is a solution. Get better.
Wrong
QUOTE Having problems with belters bomb runs? Go rix run a minimalist 4 sector econ and get hvy ints. A bomber moving 100+mps is just fast moving KB for a hvy int that you can have in 13-14 minutes.[/quote]
Wrong. a 4-sector strat of any kind is not "minimalist" when there are belters bombers boosting about everywhere. You'll have lost before you get hvy ints up.
QUOTE Don't know how to run an economy? Learn. It's easier than ever now how to figure out how miners work with smaller game sizes and a bar that tells you if they're full or not.[/quote]
True.
QUOTE Can't aim? Learn to prox.[/quote]
True. Except you do have to deploy your prox in the right location, which could be considered "aiming"
QUOTE Prox not working? Get prox2. I've yet to see prox2 fail to kill anything smaller than a capship or con outright.[/quote]
Wrong.
Prox is mostly effective against shields-based craft. Belters don't have shields. Belters have tons of hull. It's not that effective.
QUOTE Can't aim and can't prox? Go dreg sup and learn how to sit behind an aleph for a bomber that's going to travel in a straight line for you to shove dumbfires into.[/quote]
Wrong. They don't fly straight. They get rammed around by the boosting nanscouts to avoid dumbfires and prox.
QUOTE There are so many solutions to belters' bombing. So many solutions that can be carried out by one person that's good enough to carry them out.[/quote]
Wrong. It takes more pilots than that.

Manifest a significant activity level, then participate in core discussion.
I understand you're just trying to generate stuff to talk to Night about while you play LoL together and have sword-fights with your penisis while urinating.
Last edited by Mastametz on Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Drizzo
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Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:00 am

Post by Drizzo »

Sheriff Metz wrote:QUOTE (Sheriff Metz @ Sep 20 2012, 11:59 PM) Wrong. a 4-sector strat of any kind is not "minimalist" when there are belters bombers boosting about everywhere. You'll have lost before you get hvy ints up.

Wrong.
Prox is mostly effective against shields-based craft. Belters don't have shields. Belters have tons of hull. It's not that effective.

Wrong. They don't fly straight. They get rammed around by the boosting nanscouts to avoid dumbfires and prox.

Wrong. It takes more pilots than that.
Let's see. Taking hihigher and saying you did something standard like putting an op midhi and your techbase low. You mine your garr, adjacent (sector next to your home for those that didn't pass grade 12) sector, op sector and your techbase. 4 sectors in 10-ish minutes. That's minimalist.

Really? Well next time I command vs exp I'll tell people not to bother proxing vs their ints, because masta said it's ineffective.

You are complaining about bombers travelling too fast. In order to reach peak velocity, it has to travel in a direct path. You can't sidethrust at 100, 80 or even 60mps. Do you even understand how game mechanics work? If it has to sidethrust to avoid your dumbfires, dumbfires that will curve to hit a sidethrusting bomber with absolutely no problems, then it's losing speed, and losing effectiveness.

Once upon a time(2008 or 2009) a younger Drizzo solo'd a 5 man PK bomb run in a squad game with a @#(!ty old-model dreg hvy int. Don't tell me it takes more than 1 person to do something. If I can do it in a squad game between the two best squads at the time, then it's definitely do-able in a pug filled with trash tier voobs. Get better.
cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Oct 16 2010, 02:48 AM) Interceptors are fun because without one, Drizzo would be physically incapable of entering a sector.
Mastametz
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Location: Stanwood, WA

Post by Mastametz »

Doc Izzo wrote:QUOTE (Doc Izzo @ Sep 20 2012, 10:12 PM) Really? Well next time I command vs exp I'll tell people not to bother proxing vs their ints, because masta said it's ineffective.
You're stupid. The ints don't have their own personal nanscouts. Not a reasonable comparison.
QUOTE You are complaining about bombers travelling too fast. In order to reach peak velocity, it has to travel in a direct path. You can't sidethrust at 100, 80 or even 60mps. Do you even understand how game mechanics work? If it has to sidethrust to avoid your dumbfires, dumbfires that will curve to hit a sidethrusting bomber with absolutely no problems, then it's losing speed, and losing effectiveness.[/quote]
You're stupid. The bomber doesn't have to sidethrust at all, ever. It's getting rammed out of the path of such things by the boosting nanscouts. Itts only job is to fly straight as possible to maintain speed, until it gets close to the base.
QUOTE Once upon a time(2008 or 2009) a younger Drizzo solo'd a 5 man PK bomb run in a squad game with a @#(!ty old-model dreg hvy int..[/quote]
You are clearly the second coming of christ. Too bad all you do is play LoL and make lattes.

I'll take a spiced chai latte. Thanks.
Last edited by Mastametz on Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Drizzo
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Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:00 am

Post by Drizzo »

Can you even afford to go to starbucks?

And I'm pretty sure you don't know how missiles work. They have a max speed of about 4-600mps. Unless you're trying to $#@!ing fire one from a 90 degree angle at a bomber, or you're on the edge of missile range, it's not going to miss. If something is flying in a straight line, as you said in your own sentence, and you fire something significantly faster than the initial thing, it WILL overtake it.

Here I'll put it in words you understand. The only thing faster than a black guy holding drugs is the dog the cops sent out after him. Black guy being a belters bomber and the dog being a missile. Get it now?

Dumbfires curve. And the only way a nan is going to ram a bomber out of the way of missiles is if the nan is going to get above or below the bomber and ram it up/down. And it would have to be a hard ram because if it's a light one the dumbfire will still curve and hit it. How long have you played this game for?

I guess I am stupid for taking the time to bend down to your level and try to explain things to you.
cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Oct 16 2010, 02:48 AM) Interceptors are fun because without one, Drizzo would be physically incapable of entering a sector.
Mastametz
Posts: 4798
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 7:00 am
Location: Stanwood, WA

Post by Mastametz »

Doc Izzo wrote:QUOTE (Doc Izzo @ Sep 20 2012, 10:38 PM) Can you even afford to go to starbucks?
At the moment, yes, actually.
QUOTE And I'm pretty sure you don't know how missiles work. They have a max speed of about 4-600mps. Unless you're trying to $#@!ing fire one from a 90 degree angle at a bomber, or you're on the edge of missile range, it's not going to miss. If something is flying in a straight line, as you said in your own sentence, and you fire something significantly faster than the initial thing, it WILL overtake it.

Here I'll put it in words you understand. The only thing faster than a black guy holding drugs is the dog the cops sent out after him. Black guy being a belters bomber and the dog being a missile. Get it now?

Dumbfires curve. And the only way a nan is going to ram a bomber out of the way of missiles is if the nan is going to get above or below the bomber and ram it up/down. And it would have to be a hard ram because if it's a light one the dumbfire will still curve and hit it.[/quote]
So the end result of this thread is the indisputable proof that belters bombing is not OP because of this scenario in which you get multiple fighters to hide behind an aleph and rush the bomber as it comes through at 200mps and hope that their missles hit? The bomber will know if it got eyed or not/if there's a camp or not. He could just as easily pick another sector to bomb and even if the bomber is eyed the whole time the bomber/nan combo is going to get to a different sector faster than your figs are going to be able to change sectors to camp behind a different aleph (and that's assuming they don't run out of fuel, either, which is likely)

How long have you played this game for?
QUOTE I guess I am stupid for taking the time to bend down to your level and try to explain things to you.[/quote] Clearly. Enjoy LoL.



There are many ways to stop belters bombing/belters in general. All of them require a decent amount of coordination and/or skill from the opposing team. Succeeding as belters, takes none.
Last edited by Mastametz on Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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