Dreg seems to suck now

Development area for FreeAllegiance's Community Core.
Spunkmeyer
Posts: 2013
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:00 am
Location: Contact me regarding: CC, Slayer and AllegWiki.

Post by Spunkmeyer »

No.

I am saying that you should have SY enabled so you always have the option to use He3 mines.

This is not the same as saying you should always use He3 mines. In many cases it will be unnecessary.

(With all that being said, bear in mind Dreg mining econ will be better in CC17, although not drastically)
Last edited by Spunkmeyer on Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Want bigger games? Log on to play at the official game time: 9pmET/8pmCT/7pmMT/6pmPT every day of the week. Also Saturdays 8pm UTC.

guitarism
Posts: 2240
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:00 am
Location: Richmond

Post by guitarism »

So I should Always have SY enabled when playing with Dreg. This is because otherwise my economy will underpowered without HE Mines.
FIZ wrote:QUOTE (FIZ @ Feb 28 2011, 04:56 PM) After Slap I use Voltaire for light reading.
CronoDroid wrote:QUOTE (CronoDroid @ Jan 23 2009, 07:46 PM) If you're going to go GT, go Exp, unless you're Gooey. But Gooey is nuts.
QUOTE [20:13] <DasSmiter> I like to think that one day he logged on and accidentally clicked his way to the EoR forum
[20:13] <DasSmiter> And his heart exploded in a cloud of fury[/quote]
Mastametz
Posts: 4798
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 7:00 am
Location: Stanwood, WA

Post by Mastametz »

Yeah but it's fine because you don't HAVE to buy them, but you always need to keep that option open so you're always able to buy them because it's a big part of dreg's econ equation.

Makes sense.
There's a new sheriff in town.
zombywoof
Posts: 6522
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:59 am
Location: Over the Rainbow

Post by zombywoof »

MATH! (fun stuff that I know you all love)

10k to research He Mines, 6k to build He Mines, 90 seconds to build He Mine, 5 minutes between each one building.

Cost: (10000)+(6000*x)
Reward: (900)*(1)*(t) + (900)*(2)*(t-5) ... + (900)*(X)*(t-(5*X-1))
Where t = total time, X = number of mines.

Optimizing for t = 20 (it takes us 10 minutes to get the first He mine up, which is something of an underestimate, and assuming advanced tech in 30 minutes)

X's maximum is 4 (in order to get any money at all), so let's run that in:

(900)(1)(20) + (900)(2)(15) + (900)(3)(10) + (900)(4)(5) = 90000
90000 - ((10000)+(6000*4)) = 56,000

Incidentally dreg adv tech costs 83,600 for a 30 minute game on 1/1 (870 helium)

Also incidentally by doing this you $#@! the @#(! out of your early game:

1 miner load with Dreg on 1/1 is 62 he (one rock) which gives you about 6k. On 1/1 you start with 18400. Buy: miner, outpost, teleport, no refinery because we're Virulence and refineries suck and he NEVER builds them because holy @#(!! We only have 4,400 left.

Miner load docks now we have 10,400... and some options! Either we can research He3 mines and forgo second expansion, or we can wait. Even longer.

Next miner load docks now we have 16,400 and can afford that second outpost... and the first helium mine! But not a third miner. If we buy the fourth miner here, we're looking at having spent 14,250 out of that 16,400 that we've gathered.

That means we need to wait for 2 miners to mine midhigh and dock at the outpost (refineries suck! Never use them!) to afford He3 mine research and another 2 miners to dock to afford our first He3 mine (dreg miners give slightly less than 6k). We've now mined a sector and a half of helium and have nothing to show for it.

Our opponent has a sector and a half of helium and for Rix (the most expensive faction), that means they've got an extra 21000 in the bank... so for them that's an expansion, interceptors, and He3 yield.

Dreg's next four rocks will go directly to technology and we'll get a new He3 mine every 5 minutes just using paydays. Dreg just mined 24000 while Rix just mined 20000. Dreg now can afford an expansion and ints finally! Rix, on the other hand, gets dam GA, range GA, and accel GA and pockets 14000.

Dreg moves on to the third helium mine now (using just paydays) and mines a third sector, as does rix. Rix now has heavy ints. Dreg? Dreg's got some GAs now.

Spec mines hurt your econ a lot more than they help, especially when you have to buy as many of them as Dreg does. They were good because they let dreg multitech. Now you're trying to make it necessary to have them to SINGLETECH which is something they're horrific with. The ONLY reason I get spec mines as giga EVER is because I want to be able to give everyone the money for LXY whatevers and not have to worry about anyone defending anything (so I can send them all on offense). EVEN THEN it only really works for giga because of how goddamn cheap their bases are.

Dreg needs their yield back.
Image
Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
Spunkmeyer
Posts: 2013
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:00 am
Location: Contact me regarding: CC, Slayer and AllegWiki.

Post by Spunkmeyer »

I'm not suggesting you should rush He3 mines. They are a fallback option when necessary, if your mid-game fallback fails. In the end, it takes about 9 miner loads to get basic adv tech without sacrificing anything. Three more miner loads will give you economic security for the rest of the game. If you can't mine three sectors fully, you have bigger issues than faction econ balance.

Anyway, I'll go ahead and remove the yield penalty and we'll see how it goes.


Want bigger games? Log on to play at the official game time: 9pmET/8pmCT/7pmMT/6pmPT every day of the week. Also Saturdays 8pm UTC.

SunTzu
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:05 pm
Location: Asgård

Post by SunTzu »

If it doesn't matter that He3 mines are light bases now and can be defended to kingdom come, why not leave it the way it was?

And sy is still too dangerious in small games, not insane like it used to be but it's still not too hard to win with light cruisers. Once the game gets to around 10v10 then sy becomes so much less powerful but still useful.
---
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Feb 15 2013, 01:52 PM) In a lot of ways, Allegiance is like the Radio: it's all `am and `fm.
Spunkmeyer
Posts: 2013
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:00 am
Location: Contact me regarding: CC, Slayer and AllegWiki.

Post by Spunkmeyer »

Tyrh wrote:QUOTE (Tyrh @ Mar 16 2013, 02:41 PM) If it doesn't matter that He3 mines are light bases now and can be defended to kingdom come, why not leave it the way it was?
Exp has no way of killing these if they are not light, especially in exp vs exp where int bombing doesn't really work.

QUOTE And sy is still too dangerious in small games, not insane like it used to be but it's still not too hard to win with light cruisers. Once the game gets to around 10v10 then sy becomes so much less powerful but still useful.[/quote]

What do you see in small games (and also define small) single turreted cruisers or multiple no-turret cruisers?


Want bigger games? Log on to play at the official game time: 9pmET/8pmCT/7pmMT/6pmPT every day of the week. Also Saturdays 8pm UTC.

zombywoof
Posts: 6522
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:59 am
Location: Over the Rainbow

Post by zombywoof »

Three miner loads for dreg is ~18k which is barely enough to get one mine.

9 miner loads for dreg is ~54k which isn't adv tech for dreg. Basic adv tech for dreg is, as I've established, 66k. It's 11 loads for dreg which means after 14 loads (3 sectors + your home, NO EXPANDING <<<----- THIS RIGHT HERE IS THE IMPORTANT PART) you have mini1 heavies (or worse, sig1/lrm1/util1 adv sfs or boost1/gat1/df1/noMP adv figs) and a 900/min income. Assuming you just use the one mine (which would be dumb) it'll take you 21 minutes to get that money back.

Meanwhile in the 41 minutes this takes (you're playing the solitaire challenge more or less so you get to adv tech in 20 minutes, nice work!), Rix (the second most expensive faction) has mined the same 14 loads that you have. Only 14 loads because you miraculously kill all their miners despite tech disadvantage (they have GAs, you don't). You've mined 70k as Rix. That's enough for heavy ints (52.5k) as well as putting 18k in the bank for whatever. Plus Rix has the ability to afford yield GAs so they have even more money! And they've spent 21 minutes getting an extra 12k just because they don't need to buy He mines while you wait to catch up with them, so they buy a sup as well.

EDIT: There is no problem with exp not having a way to kill the bases in exp v exp aside from int bombing. It makes dreg, as a faction, good against exp... JUST like IC, as a faction, is very good against sup.
Last edited by zombywoof on Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
Spunkmeyer
Posts: 2013
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:00 am
Location: Contact me regarding: CC, Slayer and AllegWiki.

Post by Spunkmeyer »

phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Mar 16 2013, 03:01 PM) Three miner loads for dreg is ~18k which is barely enough to get one mine.
And then you can have it scale up.

QUOTE 9 miner loads for dreg is ~54k which isn't adv tech for dreg. Basic adv tech for dreg is, as I've established, 66k.[/quote]
Well try to get your numbers right if you are going to spout numbers at me. 62.5K gets you heavy ints. Paydays and what's left over from your starting money will cover the rest.
QUOTE Assuming you just use the one mine (which would be dumb) it'll take you 21 minutes to get that money back.[/quote]

16000/900=17.8min

QUOTE EDIT: There is no problem with exp not having a way to kill the bases in exp v exp aside from int bombing. It makes dreg, as a faction, good against exp... JUST like IC, as a faction, is very good against sup.[/quote]
Of course there is. Anything that reduces gameplay variety in the game for no obvious benefit is clearly bad. Making mines light with stronger hull and shields increases the variety without any substantial downside.

I've already agreed to remove the yield nerf. You can let it go...
Last edited by Spunkmeyer on Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Want bigger games? Log on to play at the official game time: 9pmET/8pmCT/7pmMT/6pmPT every day of the week. Also Saturdays 8pm UTC.

zombywoof
Posts: 6522
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:59 am
Location: Over the Rainbow

Post by zombywoof »

Spunkmeyer wrote:QUOTE (Spunkmeyer @ Mar 16 2013, 01:16 PM) Well try to get your numbers right if you are going to spout numbers at me. 62.5K gets you heavy ints. Paydays and what's left over from your starting money will cover the rest.
10k for exp, 7.5k for ints, 10k for hvy ints, 25k for adv exp = 52.5

52.5k * 1.25 = 65.625

HERPHERPHERP

QUOTE 16000/900=17.8min[/quote]
Dreg spec costs:
12500 for research, 6000 for con.

HERPHERPHERP
Last edited by zombywoof on Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
Post Reply