Dreg seems to suck now

Development area for FreeAllegiance's Community Core.
Post Reply
ChaoticStorm
Posts: 894
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:38 pm
Location: .

Post by ChaoticStorm »

qqqqqq wrote:QUOTE (qqqqqq @ Oct 16 2012, 08:48 PM) whose in charge of this anyways
Das?
I think spunky has been doing the CC work. Considering I haven't seen Das post in a while.
Jeruwafi
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:07 am

Post by Jeruwafi »

This thread needs digging out..

As of CC16 dreg is the most expensive faction in alleg requiring 952 units of helium (3,3 sectors on 1.0 HiHi) to get 1 op, 1 tele, 1 ref, 4 miners total and bare heavy ints (or any adv ship) without any supporting tech (gas etc.). All this while having 2nd worst mining speed in game and highest research cost.

As a comparison belters need 573 units (1,8 sector), IC 750 units(2.5), giga 910 units, rix 944 units and GT 925 units (all roughly 3 and a bit)

Dreg with old yield (used to be 1.35, in cc16 it's 1.2) required 846 units of helium or 2.88 sectors.

It's even worse if we consider fully-upgraded tech.


The closest in costs faction - rix - mines much faster and obviously has 1.15 pw damage perk and many other goodies (same 0.9 hull though).

Dreg also have biggest interceptors (17.5 vs 16.4 TF which is 2nd), figs (18.9 vs 18.7 rixian 2nd) and sfs (25.2 vs 23.27 rix).
---
Chiveicrook

v4p-9.62/0.97sw2/4CHhw5/6ln5pr3/5Fck2ma4/7u6/7FLw4DTWXm0l7LSi2e3+7t4Sb8AMPTen4/5a19s0r1/2g7AGPRTV
Spunkmeyer
Posts: 2013
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:00 am
Location: Contact me regarding: CC, Slayer and AllegWiki.

Post by Spunkmeyer »

You can't compare model sizes with ICE values (I wish). Dreg models have already been adjusted to roughly match other factions. If you still think there is a problem, post screenshots showing the same distance from the camera have been maintained during comparisons and I'll make them smaller.

Dreg is only 5% more expensive than IC and not any slower in mining with their miner speed and refs. They get the fastest and most maneuverable ships in Alleg and also now upgraded special mines which are pretty good income-wise. Sure, Rix has the damage bonus but no missiles whereas Dreg has missile damage & track as well as energy bonus.

So, no, on paper at least, Dreg doesn't look bad. Fast miners, cons & ships are worth a lot and frankly I'm a lot more concerned about Belters being OP.

Now if buncha people (commanders who know what they are doing especially) come out and tell me Dreg still sucks, sure, I'll fix it however you want. But I don't want to jump the gun.


Want bigger games? Log on to play at the official game time: 9pmET/8pmCT/7pmMT/6pmPT every day of the week. Also Saturdays 8pm UTC.

Jeruwafi
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:07 am

Post by Jeruwafi »

Ok. I guess I over-interpreted ICE's size. I figured that since hitbox is a bubble then it must be directly proportional to ICE's size. (Unless I've been misinformed about hitboxes being bubbles for dreg ints... ).


But how did you come up with 5% ? It's at least 20% more expensive than IC judging by some charts I made for myself. Spec mines are too situational and endgame-y to be considered part of the economy... It's more of a flavor. It's not like you can rush them or exploit them before adv tech... not to mention SY flag ties....

I'd like to hear a reason for previous dreg yield nerf too; I've been away during that time. Would it be relevant now that we can't stack settings in dreg favor (which in my time was the only way to make them seem op)?

Comms who know what they are doing? Don't we have like 4-5 of them total ingame? `gu
---
Chiveicrook

v4p-9.62/0.97sw2/4CHhw5/6ln5pr3/5Fck2ma4/7u6/7FLw4DTWXm0l7LSi2e3+7t4Sb8AMPTen4/5a19s0r1/2g7AGPRTV
Spunkmeyer
Posts: 2013
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:00 am
Location: Contact me regarding: CC, Slayer and AllegWiki.

Post by Spunkmeyer »

Jeruwafi wrote:QUOTE (Jeruwafi @ Nov 23 2012, 04:15 PM) But how did you come up with 5% ?
There is a 25% cost penalty and a 20% yield bonus. There is a 20% miner speed bonus and about a 16% mining speed penalty..each accounts for about half mining speed, so if you consider ripping miners and refs to be a wash, econ speed would be about the same.

QUOTE Comms who know what they are doing? Don't we have like 4-5 of them total ingame? `gu[/quote]

Yes :D

I may end up with an ACSS poll for cc18 if no more feedback by then.


Want bigger games? Log on to play at the official game time: 9pmET/8pmCT/7pmMT/6pmPT every day of the week. Also Saturdays 8pm UTC.

qqmwoarplox
Posts: 1647
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:18 pm

Post by qqmwoarplox »

Dreg sucks, if you'd command and played dreg you would know.
zombywoof
Posts: 6522
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:59 am
Location: Over the Rainbow

Post by zombywoof »

Spunkmeyer wrote:QUOTE (Spunkmeyer @ Nov 23 2012, 01:46 PM) Dreg is only 5% more expensive than IC and not any slower in mining with their miner speed and refs.
Um.

Dreg is a LOT more than 5% more expensive than IC.

IC heavy ints: 10k techbase, 30k upgrade research. Total cost: 40k
Dreg heavy ints: 12.5k techbase, 31250 upgrade research, 9375 interceptor research, 12500 hvy int research. Total cost: 65,625

40 * 1.2 = 48.

65625/40000 = 1.36

Dreg is 37% more expensive than IC... BEFORE accounting for any additional tech you get (such as GAs or, god forbid, actual outposts, teleports, or refineries). As for them not being any slower at mining? That's certainly true but since they have to mine 64% as much helium they're INCREDIBLY punished. Also IC miners are slow at mining but have one huge difference:

They can ripcord.

It's not about "speed" it's about "flexibility and safety." It's possible to solo an enh dreg miner in an int. It's NOT possible to solo an enh IC miner in an int because it will rip out before you kill it. IC miners HAVE to suck because they have something no other faction's miners do, it's the same reason TF has to have such @#(!ty capacities: could you imagine if you could rip patties to Gigacorp miners? How OP would that faction become?

QUOTE They get the fastest and most maneuverable ships in Alleg and also now upgraded special mines which are pretty good income-wise. Sure, Rix has the damage bonus but no missiles whereas Dreg has missile damage & track as well as energy bonus.[/quote]
Energy bonus only matters for Tac. Dreg tac has a huge problem: Dreg is blind and loud. Probing is rough for Dreg because their probes don't see very far and are easily seen. Hiding SFs is hard because even with their energy perk they still rely on being missiles up, and when they're missiles up they're easier to spot than any non-IC, non-Belters faction.

QUOTE So, no, on paper at least, Dreg doesn't look bad. Fast miners, cons & ships are worth a lot and frankly I'm a lot more concerned about Belters being OP.[/quote]
On paper, you're correct. Dreg doesn't look bad. Dreg looks like complete @#(!. On any money setting except "high" they are out-expanded by Giga and Belters (who aren't that much slower and can afford to spam more cons, also Giga starts with ENH which is more important than faction modifiers) pretty handily and even on "high" settings they're not *that* much faster than Rix or IC (20 mps faster, `ys).

Fast miners, cons, and ships aren't actually worth that much... otherwise Gigacorp would be OP and TF would be complete @#(!. The reason is very simple: in most games where speed matters, it matters because you're *kiting*. There's no kiting in Allegiance. You only need to get away from people who are killing you if you're a bbr or a scout and the 20% speed boost isn't going to make any difference in how quickly that boosting int chases you down.

Oh, and Belters aren't op. Just stop trying to play their game.
Last edited by zombywoof on Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
NightRychune
Posts: 3065
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:00 am

Post by NightRychune »

dreg has a huge yield bonus (20% on current cc iirc) as well as a starting money bonus (also 20% iirc) that mitigates an enormous amount of their increased costs

so yes they're only 5% more expensive than IC and your math is wrong

get out
SunTzu
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:05 pm
Location: Asgård

Post by SunTzu »

Aside from other things, that starting money bonus of 115% not 120% (and is down to 100% in cc17 and payday to $500 from $750)) is extremely minor in the general scheme of things. Their high yield was meant to compensate for their high costs, well sure, if the you can actually take into account the relative punishment they endure from losing a miner. Now that yield which used to be 135% is 110% although the capacity is 100% from 75% and the speed is 70% instead of 65% (tyvm the miners are much worse). However it seems spunky is going to make all factions econ completely the same in all ways and we're all going to be flying small white square polygons of various sizes as ships. BTW Dreg cost nerf and it's yield bonus are being changed to baseline 100% because spunky doesn't care about factions being different.

Also Dreg He3 mines are now light bases to boot, not to mention they are so obviously "OP" that sy must be on to actually have them. The He3 mines should definately not be light bases and should be available with sy off. Now the cost is down to 6k from 7k to build and income is 900 from 750, with the tech cost unchanges at 12.5k so they are likely a decent option if they aren't light bases. Personally I'd much rather see them cost less to research at 10k, 5k to build, and keep their income at 750.

The missile perfs for this blind faction used to actually make them worth while, but now that has been clawed back since they were such a super powerful faction (lol what?!) that they get smacked in the face and I can't remember what they are now actually but their tac is no longer dangerous and the sup is marginal, oh and by the way herr spunky is also taking the 15% energy bonus down to 5% (yaaa crappy tac now), on the bright side I guess he's going INTcore with his random +10% pw range.



Can someone who actually plays organize the CommunityCore for the players and by the players with less radical insanity?
Last edited by SunTzu on Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
---
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Feb 15 2013, 01:52 PM) In a lot of ways, Allegiance is like the Radio: it's all `am and `fm.
Spunkmeyer
Posts: 2013
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:00 am
Location: Contact me regarding: CC, Slayer and AllegWiki.

Post by Spunkmeyer »

You know, you'd make a great Rush Limbaugh replacement.

Since the only coherent argument you have is about me not playing, well, that's exactly why I'm not releasing CC 17 because I wouldn't be able to witness how it plays firsthand.

Your Dreg analysis is way off, but if you actually want to argue about it in hopes of reaching an agreement, try to drop the meaningless bull@#(! like "blind faction", "every econ the same", "radical insanity" etc and give it another shot.


Want bigger games? Log on to play at the official game time: 9pmET/8pmCT/7pmMT/6pmPT every day of the week. Also Saturdays 8pm UTC.

Post Reply