Dreg seems to suck now

Development area for FreeAllegiance's Community Core.
zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

NightRychune wrote:QUOTE (NightRychune @ Mar 13 2013, 07:47 PM) dreg has a huge yield bonus (20% on current cc iirc) as well as a starting money bonus (also 20% iirc) that mitigates an enormous amount of their increased costs

so yes they're only 5% more expensive than IC and your math is wrong
You're a $#@!ing moron. Never before have I met a grown man who can't actually understand the concept of "multiplication" and then assumes everyone else is as jaded and stupid as he is. Holy. $#@!. It's all the more pathetic because I *do the math for you* and you still can't grasp it. Let me try dumbing it down for you even further:

IC Heavies cost IC 40,000 helium.

Dreg heavies cost Dreg 65,000 helium.

Dreg gets 20% bonus on helium meaning when IC has mined 40,000 helium, Dreg gets 48,000 helium.

65,000/48,000 = 1.36

THEREFORE. DREG HEAVY INTS. COST. THIRTY SIX PERCENT. MORE. THAN IC. HEAVY INTS. MEANING DREG. HAS TO MINE. THIRTY SIX. PERCENT MORE. HELIUM. THAN IC DOES.

Stop me if the "/" sign confuses you or if you don't know how I got 36% from that calculation. I'm not going to teach you $#@!ing third grade math.
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Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
vogue
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Post by vogue »

OHHHHH SHIEEEEEEEEET
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ May 5 2013, 08:35 PM) Vogue is clearly #1 and commanding against him feels like commanding against Spideycw at times... though he lacks that little bit of "I don't care who's on my team or what the factions are, it's going to be a stomp anyways" that Spidey managed to pull off in his heyday.
Mastametz
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Post by Mastametz »

phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Mar 13 2013, 11:08 PM) THEREFORE. DREG HEAVY INTS. COST. THIRTY SIX PERCENT. MORE. THAN IC. HEAVY INTS. MEANING DREG. HAS TO MINE. THIRTY SIX. PERCENT MORE. HELIUM. THAN IC DOES.
But if Dreg has a 20% yield perk doesn't that mean that Dreg has to mine 20% less of that 36% more?

meaning that Dreg would have to mine 29% more, based on your numbers (assuming no yield perks)

honestly I probably don't remember how math works
Last edited by Mastametz on Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
There's a new sheriff in town.
Nightflame
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Post by Nightflame »

:lol:
cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Feb 27 2012, 01:40 AM) The big brass balls award goes to Nightflame for mutinying spidey (and succeeding).
NightRychune
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Post by NightRychune »

phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Mar 14 2013, 12:08 AM) You're a $#@!ing moron. Never before have I met a grown man who can't actually understand the concept of "multiplication" and then assumes everyone else is as jaded and stupid as he is. Holy. $#@!. It's all the more pathetic because I *do the math for you* and you still can't grasp it. Let me try dumbing it down for you even further:

IC Heavies cost IC 40,000 helium.

Dreg heavies cost Dreg 65,000 helium.

Dreg gets 20% bonus on helium meaning when IC has mined 40,000 helium, Dreg gets 48,000 helium.

65,000/48,000 = 1.36

THEREFORE. DREG HEAVY INTS. COST. THIRTY SIX PERCENT. MORE. THAN IC. HEAVY INTS. MEANING DREG. HAS TO MINE. THIRTY SIX. PERCENT MORE. HELIUM. THAN IC DOES.

Stop me if the "/" sign confuses you or if you don't know how I got 36% from that calculation. I'm not going to teach you $#@!ing third grade math.
lol

i never said anything about how much more expensive it was to buy specific techs

i only said dreg was 5% more expensive

dreg helium mines are infinitely more expensive than IC helium mines by the way
vogue
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Post by vogue »

NightRychune wrote:QUOTE (NightRychune @ Mar 13 2013, 10:47 PM) your math is wrong

get out
Apparently his math wasn't wrong!

Don't mind me though I just want the drama train to keep rolling
Last edited by vogue on Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ May 5 2013, 08:35 PM) Vogue is clearly #1 and commanding against him feels like commanding against Spideycw at times... though he lacks that little bit of "I don't care who's on my team or what the factions are, it's going to be a stomp anyways" that Spidey managed to pull off in his heyday.
SunTzu
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Post by SunTzu »

Spunkmeyer wrote:QUOTE (Spunkmeyer @ Mar 14 2013, 12:54 AM) Your Dreg analysis is way off,
Not really, it seems to be well in the ballpark.

Spunkmeyer wrote:QUOTE (Spunkmeyer @ Mar 14 2013, 12:54 AM) like "blind faction"
They are blind.

Which I'm ok with and I like the difference if not the blindness.

Spunkmeyer wrote:QUOTE (Spunkmeyer @ Mar 14 2013, 12:54 AM) "every econ the same"
Well it certainly seems that's the way things have been going more and more.

Spunkmeyer wrote:QUOTE (Spunkmeyer @ Mar 14 2013, 12:54 AM) "radical insanity"
It's a community core, people expect that most changes will flow around to what the community wants.

I mention a few of many things like hvy scouts, shipyard, economies, special mines, tf miners-

-Things that seem all or in part to be changes made without much discussion and/or from left field.



Anyway balancing a core is always a big effort and since you're not going to progress it right now we'll have to figure something out.
---
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Feb 15 2013, 01:52 PM) In a lot of ways, Allegiance is like the Radio: it's all `am and `fm.
Mastametz
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Post by Mastametz »

Dreg is expensive and blind, and Spunk does want to normalize the economies and already tried to do so once.
Spunk doesn't listen to anyone about anything ever and is totally delusional and lives in a fantasy world where he models a "community" core around his delusions thinking it's what is best for everyone.
I've really given up on ever trying to get through to him.


but I'd given up on CC, post-Xeretov, anyway
Last edited by Mastametz on Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

Sheriff Metz wrote:QUOTE (Sheriff Metz @ Mar 13 2013, 11:47 PM) But if Dreg has a 20% yield perk doesn't that mean that Dreg has to mine 20% less of that 36% more?

meaning that Dreg would have to mine 29% more, based on your numbers (assuming no yield perks)

honestly I probably don't remember how math works
That was established during part of the formula. The argument is that IC needs 40,000 units of helium to get what Dreg needs 65,000 units of helium to get. If their yields were the same, IC would have gotten 48,000 units of helium (or alternatively Dreg would only need 54,000 units of helium).

Code: Select all

((ICCOST)/(ICYIELD)) / ($/Helium) / (DREGCOST)/(DREGYIELD) / ($/Helium)
This is the ratio of helium they need to mine (which is a better way of estimating costs than looking at some random percentages). That's because the amount of helium needed is (roughly) given by the cost divided by the yield. Notice how the $/helium is constant (that's how much spacebucks you get for 1 helium as defined by the core) and cancels itself out. This leaves us with, inputting numbers (and rounding to 2 sig figs for dreg):

Code: Select all

(40,000)/(1.0) / (65000)/(1.2)
Or

Code: Select all

((40,000)*(1.2))/(65000)
This gives us the ratio how much cheaper IC is than Dreg. Inverting that gives us the ratio of how much more expensive (in terms of how much RAW HELIUM must be mined) Dreg is than IC:

Code: Select all

(65000)/((40000)*1.2)
That gives us 1.3651... which means that Dreg needs 137% as much helium as IC does to get advanced ships. Since IC has to mine 100% of the helium IC needs to get advanced ships, the difference between Dreg and IC is (137-100)% or 37%.

If we assume 6k per rock for IC (5400 is a full miner on WC2, no GA), IC needs 7 rocks to get adv ships. Dreg, on the other hand, needs 10. (These are rounded to whole numbers because we're assuming you just mine whole rocks). 10/7 = 1.42, or Dreg needs 42% as many rocks. (Again, rounding to whole numbers messes with it a little).

No matter how you slice it the idea that Dreg is only 5% more expensive than IC is ludicrous.

(Dreg *IS* only 5% more expensive than Rix.)

(It's also worth noting that we're excluding paydays and building construction. I'll put together an analysis of paydays, building construction, and other @#(! like that for HiHigher)


NightRychune wrote:QUOTE (NightRychune @ Mar 14 2013, 01:49 AM) lol

i never said anything about how much more expensive it was to buy specific techs

i only said dreg was 5% more expensive

dreg helium mines are infinitely more expensive than IC helium mines by the way
So what part of what I said is untrue for supremacy or tactical? :o What the $#@! are you doing with Dreg where they only have to mine 5% more helium to buy tech? I mean I guess Dreg bbrs are only 5% more expensive than IC... but if the only thing you're buying with Dreg is bbrs...
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Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
zombywoof
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Post by zombywoof »

Here's the analysis:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... yTFE#gid=0

ASSUMPTIONS:

Money settings are 1/1/Standard
Map is HiHigher
Each team buys 2 OPs, 2 REFs, 1 TP, 1 Techbase, 4 miners
Each team researches ENH ships, 3 GAs, ADV techbase, 3 GAs, ADV ships
Each team takes 40 minutes to get to ADV Tech

Dreg is, on average, 19% more expensive than all of the other factions and is the most expensive faction.

(This also gives you a good idea of Dreg's decent matchups incidentally. I've always felt like Dreg is bad against the field except TF on some maps and Rix. I still think Dreg's not very GOOD against Rix but I think they're decent vs Rix.)

Other things worth noting: look at the factions that have similar econs with Dreg. That would be Rix and TF. TF has the most baller starting scouts in the game, basically small fighters that have all of the properties of scouts and mount light boosters. Also they can ripcord to their miners to D them, and Plasgens are insane when defending miners on rocks or constructors lining up. Rix on the other hand has 12s research time and their scouts act as small rip receivers. Once again, Rix scouts have something very special about them that makes them VERY deadly.

So in other words, Rix, Dreg, and TF have very poor economies compared to the rest of the field. TF and Rix make up for it making every individual scout they field a threat against opposing miners. Dreg makes up for it by... having slightly faster lt ints? The inability to sneak around or find people sneaking around?

Incidentally, this is WC02:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0N0E#gid=0

One thing worth noting is that Dreg has a .65 mining speed in WC02 so their econ is still easy to disrupt though powerful.
Last edited by zombywoof on Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
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