TF Op Model

Drizzo · Post by **Drizzo** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:36 am

Or did no one notice that the miner insta-docks while it turns to line up to dock at the base?

Or, or, or, wait let me guess, this is a feature for TF, to have miners that dock EVEN FASTER THAN BEFORE!!!!11

Can you jokes thoroughly test things before you decide omg something new and shiny must implement?

or just copy XC's operation model and get it tested by true vets instead of by voobs.

Adept · Post by **Adept** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:27 pm

As fast as before more like.

If you know how to set the docking approach point for fan made bases, please let us know.

As for the spolerified bit, you are so funny. How well was the XC3 light-booster-only fig acceleration tested Drizzo? More like it seems nobody bothered to even do the math on acceleration, let alone actually test it on a LAN server first. Can we keep this on an adult level and cut the trolling for a change?

NightRychune · Post by **NightRychune** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:43 pm

Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ Apr 4 2011, 10:27 AM) As for the spolerified bit, you are so funny. How well was the XC3 light-booster-only fig acceleration tested Drizzo? More like it seems nobody bothered to even do the math on acceleration, let alone actually test it on a LAN server first.

Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ Apr 4 2011, 10:27 AM) Can we keep this on an adult level and cut the trolling for a change?

i could have sworn we just went over this issue of you making stupid remarks just the other day!

also someone should go ahead and split the two posts on the subject in the 12 changelog thread here, and to respond to adept's comment there: no, the old TF outpost wasn't anywhere close to being quite so troublesome in that regard. the best way i can put it is look at miner docking on, say, the TF garrison and the GT outpost which isn't really that bad, but worse than the previous TF outpost model - those two stand out as the most prominent examples of miners lining up too close and docking way too quickly/being susceptible to getting rammed into the base very easily

the new TF outpost is far more prominent in that regard than both of those bases

Adept · Post by **Adept** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:08 pm

Night, I just tested this. I even have pictures for you.

TF miner takes actually slightly longer do dock to the new op than the old one. It doesn't line up any closer. I tested this with a stop watch and cc_11b and cc_12.

Now TF miners _do_ of course dock very quick, but that's the turn rate, agility and acceleration of the faction. This hasn't gotten worse with the new outpost, and with the smaller door they should be easier to ram without going in.

NightRychune · Post by **NightRychune** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:16 pm

i actually just went through a thorough check myself and identified your problem

the hitbox for docking extends beyond merely the center of the green door. looking at it closely, there are two rings separated by a narrow depression - the outside green ring does not count for docking but the inside green ring does

the miners tend to line up rather close to that ring, a fair distance away from the center of the door itself, and they can be forced to autopilot evade away from friendly ships, into that ring, and subsequently forced into docking with the base incredibly fast to the point that it is something very easy to exploit against anyone attacking your miner close to your outpost

Adept · Post by **Adept** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:18 pm

Like I suspected, further testing shows that lining up very close is indeed a problem with all TF bases, and this is further compounded by the fact that the high accel and agility of TF miners means that they make their lining up in a fraction of the time of, say, and IC miner needs.

The times for the final docking dive are roughly.

TF garrison 1 sec
Old TF op 1 sec
new TF op 2 sec <--- takes a bit longer, rather than being faster it seems
IC op ~4 sec

I can re-take the proper stop watch times if needed, but this is roughly correct. Now I totally agree that it would be nice to have longer approaches for the TF miners, but unless somebody knows where this is set, there is little we can do.

NightRychune · Post by **NightRychune** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:21 pm

also, subsequently because of that inside ring counting for docking, you have situations where multiple miners attempting to dock at once will push each other into the base

it's extremely entertaining to watch, and also extremely entertaining to micro the miners to make them force each other into the base

the reason you are terrible at this, adept, is because you are incapable of thinking outside the box. you want to look at everything in nice, simple, black and white terms, like this

Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ Apr 4 2011, 10:27 AM) As for the spolerified bit, you are so funny. How well was the XC3 light-booster-only fig acceleration tested Drizzo? More like it seems nobody bothered to even do the math on acceleration, let alone actually test it on a LAN server first. Can we keep this on an adult level and cut the trolling for a change?

when things at work in allegiance are far more complex than that. good short-term performance was never the point, as figs are not meant to be interceptors - improved long-range performance was because 1) figs could not deal with scouts early game unless the scout tried to dm with a fig and 2) figs had to spend an absurd amount of fuel in order to cross a sector in order to engage a target. short range performance is moot considering figs can be delivered a short distance from a target through good use of carriers - and i'll also note that, in terms of flight performance, figs in 03 with cruise boosters still perform better than the old booster model, and the actual major issue stemmed from low damage against utility hull, which is more significant for figs because apparently people flying figs are incapable of shooting nans.

although i find people flying ints, like yourself, are generally incapable of shooting nans as well. i was greatly amused yesterday when you failed to even drop the shields on my scout while attacking a miner and then drifted through my prox and died upon ramming an outpost. i guess you should change dreg outpost models too, like i'm sure you want to change the IC shipyard, because the hitbox is unfair and it's too easy to die from ramming it

Adept · Post by **Adept** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:27 pm

Did you try the same with the old OP?

Here's some references to the line-up distances.

IC outpost

TF garrision

Old TF op

New TF op

Post by **pkk** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:33 pm

NightRychune wrote:QUOTE (NightRychune @ Apr 4 2011, 07:21 PM) it's extremely entertaining to watch, and also extremely entertaining to micro the miners to make them force each other into the base

FYI, this also happens with other bases... So far I can confirm TF Garrison, original TF OP, TF TAC, ...

NightRychune · Post by **NightRychune** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:38 pm

yeah, you can do it with the gt op as well

i'm not saying other bases aren't problematic in that regard, i'm just saying this one is much moreso than the others. drawing the docking hitbox tighter around the center of the op such that it doesn't include the big green rim around the door would greatly reduce the issue here.

you can argue about controlled tests all you want and how it's fine there, but most situations aren't controlled tests. nobody gives a @#(! about how fast a miner can dock at an outpost when it's not under pressure. it's going to dock, you'll get your money, the end. it's the tense situations where you have a bunch of mother$#@!ers trying to blow up your miner at your outpost, you have a bunch of people flying around defending it, and then - oh whoops miner offense invalidated the miner drifted slightly and went into the base