the detractor thread

From the Dark Nebula, a new star is born.
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NightRychune
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Post by NightRychune »

so there are a few people saying a lot of retarded @#(! about XC and I think it's funny, it's only appropriate that i share these things with the community so we can all have fun! i'd also like an open forum for my detractors to actually detract, instead of spend their time whining behind closed doors!

this is where you say things like

QUOTE I hate how Virulence is twisting Allegiance out of shape
if he had his way, his stupid core would be for SGs
and then only people who keep up with his latest random changes
would have any idea
on what works and what doesn't
if it takes over, Alleg will die
it's a retard core
I don't know why people are going along with it[/quote]

and then we all make fun of you!

first thread game: WHO SAID WHAT I JUST QUOTED!?
SaiSoma
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Post by SaiSoma »

I shouldn't play since I already know . .heh.
BackTrak
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Post by BackTrak »

QUIT BLOCKING PROGRESS SAI!!!!
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Broodwich
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Post by Broodwich »

i would say minigun based on text layout, him and hj_kg are the only ones who type like that and i cant recall hj ever being so opposed
QUOTE Drizzo: ha ha good old chap
Drizzo: i am a brit
Drizzo: tut tut
Drizzo: wankarrrrrr
Drizzo: i only have sex whilst in the missionary position[/quote] Fas est et ab hoste doceri - Ovid
HSharp
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Post by HSharp »

Das - doubtful
Spunky - doubtful
Fedman?
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DasSmiter
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Post by DasSmiter »

Lets talk about pulse probes
Icky wrote:QUOTE (Icky @ Sep 21 2009, 11:26 PM) Please do NOT change them. PPs work fine as is, like most of the things that Adept suggests changing.

PPs are a nicely balanced double edged-sword. The exp team that buys them risks having them used against them on HTT runs. They are fine on interceptors. One PP is not really enough to drop, eye an SF, run him down, and kill him if the SF has any kind of clue. It IS enough to scare him off or deter solo runs on miners. If an int wants to carry more than one, then its a sacrifice of fuel or ammo, which is pretty major.

The real issue when you are tac are scouts dropping them to hunt down your SBs/SFs, and Adept's suggestion does not address that.

Do. Not. Touch.
phoenix1 wrote:QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Sep 22 2009, 12:00 AM) I agree with icky wholeheartedly. It is definitely possible to attack miners with SFs and it's definitely possible to SB vs PPs. Sure, it takes talent, and patience, and teamwork, but that's how allegiance is supposed to work.
And then
NightRychune wrote:QUOTE (NightRychune @ Mar 3 2010, 10:39 AM) I don't think removing pulse probes is a good solution, and that'd cause more problems than it would solve. It'd make tac, which is already in a pretty good place right now, even more powerful. Pulse probes have a pretty minimal impact on properly executed TP2 drops right now simply because the sig of adv/hvy scouts is so low and they move fast, it's generally very difficult to track even one in your sector down unless you commit 3-5 people to flying around pulsing out the entire sector, and even then it's not a guarantee.

Pulse probes had nothing to do with the XRM or FB 'problem,' those were created and implemented because Sup had no endgame against an exp team with heavy ints that was turtling, and games would just drag on and on and on. The problem is that Sup has gotten to a point where it's THE best way to win and carry through a game, from the mid stages all the way to the end in terms of offense and defense in every way. It kills miners faster, it has better mobility, it can expand faster and cheaper than Expansion can, and can exert superior map control and better forward presence than Expansion can.

The reason Sup wasn't this bad before is that you got all of the above - inexpensive expanding, map control, etc etc but fighters sucked @#(!, and you had the opportunity to tear through them with mini2 ints because they had less fuel, bigger hitboxes, worse gunmounts (in the cases of giga and IC) and weren't nearly as good at engaging in combat as they are now. Figs have been buffed so much, and ints have been nerfed, and it's at the point now where figs are on par with ints in terms of killing ANYTHING, whether it's DMing or miners, cons, whatever. This is especially apparent when it comes to the smaller hitbox figs like Bios and Dreg. You just don't have any reason to fear going head to head with an int in a fig like you used to.
Alright here goes boys and girls, lets take a look at adept core
Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ Oct 25 2010, 05:11 PM) Smiter, what's your opinions on a mass reduction on fighters?
Super way back machine go
Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ May 13 2008, 12:35 PM) This.

I'd actually like to see the default fig booster be the cruise booster.

***

Personal wishes.

Beef up retroboosters. I've never seen anybody buy those things. I pick them up and use them when I fly anything else than belts, but they are right on the edge of uselessness. If the thrust from retroboosters was beefed up some, they would be a really nice perk to scout pilots. They should probably also be garrison tech.

Make figbombers work properly like figbombers. They should be good fighter craft when they are not laden with AB's, not the sad creatures they are now. Think of F/A 18 or the european Tornado. I'd like to have it so that the AB's weigh the figbombers down, but once they have been launched they fly like enhanced figs. TP 2 balance issues have more to do with TP 2 drops in general than figbombers. If figbombers feel too effective after this, just adjust their price up.
CODE
Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ Feb 25 2011, 04:11 PM) Ok chaps, here's something I've been working on for half a year. I feel the current SY structure is very stupid and we can do much better. I like many aspects of how things were back in the MS days, but we can do better than that as well. Thanks for Vly and Spunky for input.

* The point about Skycap projectile speed has already been done elsewhere, but since this is the SY thread I'll repeat it here. Noir upped the projectile speed from 1k to 2k, which was way too drastic. 1333 or 1500 should be a good place to start adjusting the projectile speed so that SC doesn't suck, but isn't as over the top as it's now.

DN did other weird things to SY as well. First disruptor's cap killing power ramped to silly levels, and then heavier than cruiser super caps and Long Tom turrets were added to make caps viable again if you pour in stupid amounts of money. Additionally the stupidly agile corvette was added as low end SY cheese (I won't even talk about the freighter). Naturally the additional caps use existing graphics as well. Not cool.


My main point is getting back to buying the ships you want, rather than having to pay for everything on the way. Looking at the prices of caps in DN / CC it's easy to see why many of them are practically never seen.

Prices taken from GT SY

SY con 20k

Light class 5k
* Corvette 3k / ship
* Attack Car 4k / ship

Medium Class 10k
* Assault Ship 5k / ship
* Destroyer 4k / ship
* Frigate 6k / ship

Heavy Class 15k
* Devastator 6k / ship
* Cruiser 7k / ship


[support ships]
Price of first Attack Carr 29k
Price of first Ass ship 40k

***

[base killers]
Price of first frigate 41k
Price of first cruiser 57k

***

[ship killers]
Price of first Destroyer 39k
Price of first Devastator 56k


-----------------------------------------

See what I mean? Who would in a normal game ever buy a devastator when 1k more gets you a cruiser? The stupid corvettes not only have over the top stats, but they are also such great bang for buck that other low end caps hardly ever make sense to buy.



Here's the actual proposal. Costs need to be hammered out better, and a few choises made, but you'll get the idea.


Split SY into three tech paths. Each path has one ship researchable in Shipyard. Once you have a ship reserached, you can upgrade to Drydock if you want, and research the corresponding DD level cap. (Some techs can be tied to these ship researches as well if needs be.). You always need the SY ship researched to research the related DD one.


Base Killers (this is the most expensive path)
-------------
SY: Frigate
DD: Cruiser

Ship Killers
-------------
SY: Destroyer*
DD: Devastator

Suppor ships
---------------
SY: Attack Carrier
DD: Assault Ship



And that's it. No super caps, no vette or freighter. I have a rough sketch for pricing as a starting point, but I want to point out a few things before I get to them. The idea I thanks Vly for is that keeping research expensive and individual capital ships cheap is probaly the best way we can have SY scale with game size. In a small game, the SY team will want to field one cruser. In a 20 vs. 20 game, the SY team will want three cruisers. The single cruiser can handle 5+ defenders, where three can handle 15+ with some coordination. It actually scales if the individual cruisres are cheap enough. If they cost 15k each like I think they did in the MS days that just won't happen. The amount of money on the map doesn't increase with game size afterall.


*Regarding the destroyer:

a) Revert the Hunter Killers to their original stats, aside maybe from the 1 sec lock time accross the board (HK 1, 2, 3).
b) Give the destroyer a full skycap turret

c) if it's too cheap and effective to use the dest as anti-cap ship for it's research and unit price, let's move killer swarm to Drydock. That way the dest can use anti-cap torp at the SY level, and on the DD level you can get the ultmate cap killer devastator and / or equip your dests with killer swarms.


I'd also like us to consider a few things. Currently 20k gets a large SY con you can push anywhere. I think it would actually be nice if the SY con would cost 15k or even 10k, but require a tech rock. It would give more flexibility to the pricing.

One important aspect in buying individual ships and paths is that it makes it pretty easy for us to adjust and tweak the balance. If something is never bought it's too expensive relative to it's usefulness. If something always gets bought, it's probably too cheap.

All that said, here's a one version of how the prices could go, with the current 20k SY con.

---------------------------
SY-con 20k
---------------------------

Frigate research 17k
* frigate 3k (price of 1st frigate 40k)
---
Destroyer research 8k
* Dest 2k (price of 1st dest 30k)
---
Attack Carrier res 5k
* AttCarr 2k (price of 1st carr 27k)

---------------------------
Upgrade to drydock 10k
---------------------------

Cruiser research 10k (req frig)
* cruiser 5k (price of 1st cruiser 60k)
---
Devastator research 5k
* Devastator 3k (price of 1st dev 44k)
---
Assault Ship research 5k
* Ass ship 3k (price of 1st ass 41k)





You can easily see how a cheaper SY con (requiring the tech rock) would pricing the ships more flexible.
Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ Feb 1 2011, 08:32 AM) I'm fine with 0 scan with current signatures. Currently beacons in particular can make uneyed bombing practically impossible. The super probe role is often more important than the pod pickup role. WIth 0 scan a beacon will still be practically impossible to find, but it won't make deprobing impossible. Same with RPs of course.
Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ Feb 1 2011, 06:37 PM)
Broodwich wrote:QUOTE (Broodwich @ Feb 2 2011, 12:16 AM) edit:
belters need the sanc sig reduced to at least a regular probe sig (30%). the deal is both sides can rescue to it but its so easy to see atm you have to stick it way the $#@! out there so some random int passing by doesnt find it
This sounds good.
Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ Dec 8 2010, 05:17 PM)
Spunkmeyer wrote:QUOTE (Spunkmeyer @ Dec 8 2010, 09:39 PM) No...the original Rix design was all scouts & enhanced/advanced figs could rip to all scouts. This keeps the same design (so not costing Rix money & missed opportunity by not flying a SR scout) while letting us curb the too-fast rip rate of the original.

It will also bring back long-distance rix bombing since nans can rip in more nans.
:iluv:





Granted the mini AC is a problem, but it's silly anyway.
Should I continue?
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Get over yourselves, don't try to win arguments on the internet where the option of a punch in the mouth is unavailable
"It is not that I cannot create anything good, but that I will not." And to prove this, he created the peacock.
spideycw
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Post by spideycw »

I'm guessing Adept based off Das's post :biggrin:

edit: BTW is das trying to imply adept came up with all those ideas or something? I'm a bit confused about what his point is
Last edited by spideycw on Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm sorry I don't remember any of it. For you the day spideycw graced your squad with utter destruction was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Sunday
Idanmel wrote:QUOTE (Idanmel @ Mar 19 2012, 05:54 AM) I am ashamed for all the drama I caused, I have much to learn on how to behave when things don't go my way.

My apologies.
DasSmiter
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Location: Stillwater, Oklahoma

Post by DasSmiter »

I just figure every time something gets done that Adept likes it is Adept Core?

It is always surprising to me that he doesn't like this core
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Get over yourselves, don't try to win arguments on the internet where the option of a punch in the mouth is unavailable
"It is not that I cannot create anything good, but that I will not." And to prove this, he created the peacock.
Broodwich
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Post by Broodwich »

im not really sure either, it gets especially confusing when he mentions rps sig and scan. since i've been trying to get that changed since before cc came out
QUOTE Drizzo: ha ha good old chap
Drizzo: i am a brit
Drizzo: tut tut
Drizzo: wankarrrrrr
Drizzo: i only have sex whilst in the missionary position[/quote] Fas est et ab hoste doceri - Ovid
NightRychune
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Post by NightRychune »

i'm not exactly doing anything new or revolutionary here, some of the things i've changed (like splitting fig/int boosters) are 10 year old ideas, people were talking about rescue probes being over powered at least 7 or 8 years ago, seperate SR scouts in DN were always kind of awkward and so was shipyard, heavy scouts were a scout fetishist's wet dream left over from PC2 (i actually have wanted to outright have them removed for a very long time, but didn't!)

as for pulse probes, there has been endless debate back and forth over them for years! the date of those posts is also relevant - speaking within the context of the paradigms at work at the time, i stand by what I said that. now that I am able to simply change that paradigm and redesign the way many things interact with minimal resistance, it's far easier to deal with things that create uncomfortable situations like RPs/Beacons and pulse probes!

really adept is a *#$@, doesn't like me, and merely wants to whine that i'm ruining the game and that he doesn't like my core without ever going into specific matters about it

also you should fix your giant wall of quotes because my beautiful thread's formatting looks $#@!ed up
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