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For all factions' miners:

115 second average round trip from gar/op/tech base in middle of sector
95 second average round trip from ref in middle sector

TF basic miners

Max speed: 90 mps
Time at rock: 25 seconds
Full load: 3960 credits
Average transit time from/to gar: 2:20
Average transit time from/to ref: 2:00

IC basic miners

Max speed: 100
Time at rock: 1:20
Full load: 5400
Average transit time from(rock,tp)/to gar/op/tech base: 3:10


GT basic miners

Max speed: 100
Time at rock: 1:50
Full load: 7440
Average transit time from/to gar/op/tech base: 3:40


Rixian basic miners

Max speed: 100
Time at rock: 1:30
Full load: 7200


Bios basic miners

Max speed: 100
Time at rock: 1:30
Full load: 7200


Belters basic miners

Max speed: 115
Time at rock: 2:00
Full load: 7200


Omicron Hive basic miners

Max speed: 96
Time at rock: 1:10
Full load: 6120


Gigacorp

Max speed: 110
Time at rock: 1:52
Full load: 9000


Dreg basic miners

Max speed: 115
Time at rock: 1:44
Full load: 7290


I only did average transit time for the first three factions listed here cause its basic math and no one cares/it isn't important.

TF miners are supposedly slow... but their max speed is only 10 mps slower than average, yet they mine at 200% the speed of average. Thrust multipliers for all miners are the same.

Granted miner capacity for TF is .55(55% of default) but TF is a partialing faction. You don't need much money to get ints/yield/damage/whatever up pretty quickly at any total money setting. I focus on TF exp because barely anyone goes TF sup anymore since any other factions ints destroy TF figs with ease.

I recommend that refineries be removed for TF. Other options might be to make their tech more expensive, make their miners actually slow(60-70 mps max speed), or increase their mining time.

The ability to ripcord to a TF miner with a dual-gat plasgen dropping scout is cheesy enough, but the fact that TF can mine so fast is in my opinion where the faction gets the biggest advantage over all other factions... and is why it's getting overplayed the most by commanders/players that love expansion(me/the majority).

Is this a good thread to address TF issues in general?

I'd like to start a discussion about the effective 1.44 acceleration, as it's a major source of annoyance when pings get above 100. The issue isn't the accel perk but that odd 0.8 ships mass. Set it to 1.0 and the TF ships will stop jumping around.

i wrote a whole big post but then i realized it'd probably go over most people's heads

TL;DR: If you're going to nerf TF, nerf one of these things: Yield, Cost (these two are probably not necessary considering their sup/tac are not very good as sole tech paths), Accel, their ints' mass, or their hull. Hell, take away their lt ints and force them to just use their scouts until basic ints are done (although this is kind of harsh and I'd reduce basic int research time with this solution).

oh wait i like this idea best give all of their ints 0 energy regen and make them require solar inverter to recharge their energy, but make the actual piece of equipment 4 or 6 mass so at full combat effectiveness they're heavier than normal ints and their accel bonus doesn't count for as much.

They ARE slow - take those times and DOUBLE THEM BECAUSE THEY NEED TWO TRIPS TO BRING IN AS MUCH HE AS ANY OTHER MINER DOES WITH ONE. The reason TF miners have a 2.0 mining speed is to compensate for their 0.55 capacity.

I'll use the numbers you gave there to do some quick calculations.
TF miner:
25*2 = 50 seconds spent at rock
2:00*2 = 4 minutes spent in transit to/from ref (or 2:20*2 = 4:40 for OPs)
4:50 spent to drain a rock if you've got a ref in-sector, or 5:30 if you're using an OP or garr instead

GT miner:
1:50*1 = 1:50 spent at rock
3:10*1 = 3:10 spent in transit to/from OP
5:00 spent to drain a rock

And that's just average times - the farther the miner has to travel (such as when they fly to the next sector, or have to mine an empty sector), the worse TF fares.

As for your comments regarding ints tearing apart TF figs, the same would apply to any faction's figs. It's almost as if everybody goes exp because everybody else goes exp and ints are the only ships that can stand up against ints (caps too, but SY's not a primary techpath, so people go expyard when they wanna beat ints)!

September 8th 2006 - Dome registers on FAO.org

August 26th 2010 - Dome figures out how TF works

No wonder why they say this game has a steep learning curve..

Dome wrote:QUOTE (Dome @ Aug 26 2010, 07:26 AM) I recommend that refineries be removed for TF.

I will skull frak you if that ever happens from this suggestions.

Anyway, on the point that they actually are decent faction for cash, yes that's true and maybe it's too much so. I like them fine as is however.


Side note- ints; It seems that the best way to have ints nerfed (pretty much minorly) without people bitching is to reduce the longevity of a fuel slot.

If tf econ is as good (or even better) than other factions, how about increasing their techcost to 1.0?
I see no particular reason for 0.75 cost with the econ TF has as it is in CC10.

ADDITIONALLY their accel needs to be nerfed because its impossible to fight any tf small ship (I include scouts here) with 200 ms ping if the pilot just randomly hits thrusters.

NightRychune wrote:QUOTE (NightRychune @ Aug 26 2010, 09:33 AM) TL;DR: If you're going to nerf TF, nerf one of these things: Yield, Cost (these two are probably not necessary considering their sup/tac are not very good as sole tech paths)

Most faction tac/sup is not good as a sole tech path compared to exp. Lets not weaken only TF exp but all exps instead.

NightRychune wrote:QUOTE (NightRychune @ Aug 26 2010, 09:33 AM) oh wait i like this idea best give all of their ints 0 energy regen and make them require solar inverter to recharge their energy, but make the actual piece of equipment 4 or 6 mass so at full combat effectiveness they're heavier than normal ints and their accel bonus doesn't count for as much.

Sorry but this is a bad idea unless TF int energy amount is significantly increased, because you would run out of energy after about 21-23 seconds (mini1-mini3). So you would need to load that piece of tech at all times and use it whenever shooting -> you can just change the int mass instead and allow newbies to shoot stuff too (because they would be sure to run out of energy despite having that anticloak on board)

TL;DR:
Put Tf costs to 1.0.
Lower tf accel to 1.0 (will still result in good accel with 0.8 mass)

Another of these eh?

Again I was thinking of nerfing TF agi/accel for those of you complaining about lag shooting

As for TF econ they do fairly well with partial cash if they have a base in teh same sector, and no better than Bios since they require more than paydays to keep going

Ok look, tf is getting hit with a lot of changes in a short time, let's see how it plays out first before making more changes.

I do agree a tiny change to accel would be a good thing.

TF is not cheesy because of its econ, its cheesy because the tech is so strong.