Right now, Si mines are generally felt to be the best because they give $2000 per minute, while Ca and Ur mines produce $1250. Sometimes overlooked is the fact that Ur mines have thicker shields than an outpost, making them more difficult to dis or galv. Ca mines' only bonus is reduced signature, which isn't any kind of buff once the station is found (no more difficult than finding a teleport receiver).
CC team may leave the existing sig buff in place, but we'd like to make Ca mines at least as good as Ur mines. One idea that was brought up was to make Ca mines a cross between Ur and Si, with slightly better shields and paydays. Other ideas were to increase scan range, perhaps up to as much as a pulse probe; to make the constructors cheaper so that it doesn't take as long to make back your investment but the gross payday bonus doesn't change; or to make them relay lead indicators like carriers, which would go well with increased scan range because it only relays what it can see directly.
You may vote for any or all of the options. We will modify Ca mines based on the top two or three options and on your responses to the thread.
Carbon SpecMines
If the con planted uneyed, then teleport receivers can hide for a fair while as long as they aren't built right in the middle of the sector. I've seen them occasionally escaping detection until a scout guesses at its existence and specifically searches the sector for it. On the other hand, it's a lot easier to find something that's required to build on a tech rock - anyone can see with a glance at the minimap that the C rock's gone, and then it's just a matter of getting a scout to fly there and look for whatever built on it.
That said, if one specmine is obviously more valuable than the others, why are you proposing that we beef up the other two? Wouldn't it be better to weaken Si mines to bring them in line with the other specmines instead? It's not like Tac rocks are particularly valuable, either - why do the best specmines build on the rock type least likely to be used as a techbase? I've had buyer's regret with Ca mines before when I could have used a sup later, but I've never stepped back and said "oh no I used up all the Si rocks with specmines, now how am I going to build a tac?"
I mean, you even acknowledge that the only thing people care about with specmines is the size of the payday...so why would useless crap like "slightly thicker shields" or "relay lead indicators" make a difference? Making it cheaper to give it the same economic power as a Si rock would bring up its use...but then six months later you'd make a thread complaining about how Ur mines aren't used and need to be beefed up. And it'd just keep on going full circle forever until every specmine type costs $100 and gives $40965430985049385 per second.
That said, if one specmine is obviously more valuable than the others, why are you proposing that we beef up the other two? Wouldn't it be better to weaken Si mines to bring them in line with the other specmines instead? It's not like Tac rocks are particularly valuable, either - why do the best specmines build on the rock type least likely to be used as a techbase? I've had buyer's regret with Ca mines before when I could have used a sup later, but I've never stepped back and said "oh no I used up all the Si rocks with specmines, now how am I going to build a tac?"
I mean, you even acknowledge that the only thing people care about with specmines is the size of the payday...so why would useless crap like "slightly thicker shields" or "relay lead indicators" make a difference? Making it cheaper to give it the same economic power as a Si rock would bring up its use...but then six months later you'd make a thread complaining about how Ur mines aren't used and need to be beefed up. And it'd just keep on going full circle forever until every specmine type costs $100 and gives $40965430985049385 per second.
Last edited by Jimen on Thu May 13, 2010 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
If we were making FairCore, we'd make all three identical to Si mines, then nerf them if necessary. If Si mines really are overpowered, then we'll nerf them, but "rushing Si mines" is widely considered a fool's strategy as it is.
Any job worth doing with a laser is worth doing with many, many lasers. -Khrima
Beyond a shadow of a doubt if you don't watch them like a hawk they will stack their collective balls off - MrChaos on Alleg players
Beyond a shadow of a doubt if you don't watch them like a hawk they will stack their collective balls off - MrChaos on Alleg players
Si mines are clearly out of balance with the other two, though? This isn't even a statement of widely held opinion, it is mathematical fact - I absolutely hate doing the calculations myself but it's obvious even to me. The paydays they bring in are over 60% larger than those of the other two specmines, and despite a 25% increase in cost, Si mines still pay themselves off faster than Ca or Ur mines.
So my question here is "what are you actually trying to accomplish?" What is the problem you're addressing? Is it "Si mines are used more often than the other types" or is it "Ca and Ur mines aren't used as often as Si mines"? Because I'll tell you now, the cost/benefit ratio is the only detail of a specmine that most people give even an eighth of a crap about.
So my question here is "what are you actually trying to accomplish?" What is the problem you're addressing? Is it "Si mines are used more often than the other types" or is it "Ca and Ur mines aren't used as often as Si mines"? Because I'll tell you now, the cost/benefit ratio is the only detail of a specmine that most people give even an eighth of a crap about.
Ca mines are special for Giga because Giga wants to eat up sup rocks if possible. That being said, 9 times out of 10 they're better off just putting a Sup on the accessible rock and claiming the others with a tp/op.
Ur mines are nice for giga because they represent very little investment and seal off a techpath that Giga does not use. These mines are very useful if you're against a major exp faction like IC because it limits their options and gives you forward TP receivers if you elect to go sup. Basically it means you can put out 2 tps and an op every 90 seconds instead of just 1 tp and 1 op.
Si mines are fantastic because of that 2k payday, but at the same time giga tac is pretty powerful considering the lxy sfs.
Right now, Si is clearly the best followed by Ur and then Ca. Considering that sup is the most common techpath for Giga, I'd say bringing the Ca mines up a bit ($1500 paydays, switch the sig and scan buffs) is probably in order. That would make Si > ur/ca, and put ur/ca as roughly equal.
Ur mines are nice for giga because they represent very little investment and seal off a techpath that Giga does not use. These mines are very useful if you're against a major exp faction like IC because it limits their options and gives you forward TP receivers if you elect to go sup. Basically it means you can put out 2 tps and an op every 90 seconds instead of just 1 tp and 1 op.
Si mines are fantastic because of that 2k payday, but at the same time giga tac is pretty powerful considering the lxy sfs.
Right now, Si is clearly the best followed by Ur and then Ca. Considering that sup is the most common techpath for Giga, I'd say bringing the Ca mines up a bit ($1500 paydays, switch the sig and scan buffs) is probably in order. That would make Si > ur/ca, and put ur/ca as roughly equal.
Don't find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain.
Cookie Monster wrote:QUOTE (Cookie Monster @ Apr 1 2009, 09:35 PM) But I don't read the forums I only post.
Increased scan range (up to pps, maybe a bit less) will add another option for the commander against tac team.. ( hard to sbs ca specs, while ur/si specs will easily die)
Last edited by theTroy on Thu May 13, 2010 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thank you parci
Read his first post:Jimen wrote:QUOTE (Jimen @ May 13 2010, 05:43 AM) What is the problem you're addressing?
Also following your reasoning we should say "hey X faction tech sucks because of Y, lets bring all the other factions tech down to that level and problem solved".Compellor wrote:QUOTE (Compellor @ May 13 2010, 03:54 AM) Ca mines' only bonus is reduced signature, which isn't any kind of buff once the station is found (no more difficult than finding a teleport receiver).
Anyway, i'd go for the better hull/shield perk. That way you can chose between weaker but more paydays, stronger but less paydays, not as strong but stealthier spec.
ACS grad since 2nd Feb. 2010