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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:11 am
by beeman
I picked up blender and started playing with it. I have a general, newbie, modelling question. I have seen models for ships that are almost photo-realistic. I'm sure these models go well beyond the low poly and uv texture mapping we use in alleg models. Question is: If I wanted to spend a lot of time trying to create a very detailed model for alleg, can this be done? Or does the alleg modelling format simply not contain the right features (material components, light engines, etc) to be able to do this?
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:25 am
by madpeople
Things like this are rendered inside the modeling program:
Things like this are images taken from mdl view and photoshopped:
Allegiance modeling only lets you texture a static model, there can be no semitransparent parts or volumetric effects (without doing some shenanigans which is a bit of a hash), there is no bump mapping or complex shadows, alleg only has simple lighting. basicly alleg rendering is very basic, and you can have all sorts of pretty effects within the modeling tool.
but that's not to say detailed models can't look good. SW core models look pretty good:
Though they don't look as good as they could if they had modern rendering+post processing effects.
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:30 am
by beeman
So something like this would be impossible in alleg then because alleg does not have the lighting and rendering effects - correct? (not mine, just something I found on a web site)
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:30 am
by Adaven
Basically, yeah. Alleg could handle the geometry and texture fine, but you couldn't do the self shadowing, emmissve, specularity, or bump mapping.
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:04 am
by beeman
I was thinking that instead of the simple uv mapping, if alleg could do bump mapping (or normal mapping - take a look at the reference papers here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_mapping) it would add a whole new look to the game. The normal mapping technique allows one to take a low poly model and give it the appearance of a much more detailed image. Like I said, I'm new to all of this so I will probably say something stupid, but could the current code be "tricked" by creating a bump map or normal map and disguising it as the current texturing or uv mapping?
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:30 am
by Andon
uhh.... no.
Bump mapping is bump mapping. Normal Mapping is Normal Mapping. UV mapping is UV mapping. It's like trying to fit an octopus through a penguin. It just doesn't work (And if you do manage to get the octopus through the penguin, neither are anything remotely like what they were before. Plus you've added a whole bunch of other problems to your plate too.)
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:14 am
by SpaceJunk
Ambient light levels in bidirectional lighting mode are somewhat close to an uniform ambient level; perhaps if the model for normal mapping is rendered under diffuse ambient light (resulting in the more hidden spots being darker) it may fit ingame.
Angles could be muted (if real) or hinted (if fake) a bit by giving textures a "bent/bruised metal" brighter aspect along the borders.
Fake unidirectional shadows pretending that the surface is made of planks can trick the eye in Alleg for a second before you move or get close enough to notice that they lack any 3D dimension.
I.e.:
http://www.freeallegiance.org/forums/index...showtopic=51829
Fake lights like the ones in that GT exp texture tend to look credible only from one side, though.
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:12 pm
by beeman
SpaceJunk wrote:QUOTE (SpaceJunk @ Mar 28 2010, 12:14 AM) Ambient light levels in bidirectional lighting mode are somewhat close to an uniform ambient level; perhaps if the model for normal mapping is rendered under diffuse ambient light (resulting in the more hidden spots being darker) it may fit ingame.
Angles could be muted (if real) or hinted (if fake) a bit by giving textures a "bent/bruised metal" brighter aspect along the borders.
Fake unidirectional shadows pretending that the surface is made of planks can trick the eye in Alleg for a second before you move or get close enough to notice that they lack any 3D dimension.
I.e.:
http://www.freeallegiance.org/forums/index...showtopic=51829
Fake lights like the ones in that GT exp texture tend to look credible only from one side, though.
WOW...definitely a step in the right direction.
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:00 am
by beeman
Sorry for the double post.
So if there were one or two modelling techniques that could have a major impact on the look of the game, what would they be? I heard bump mapping a couple of times...that is why I brought it up before. Would the ability to use a technique like bump mapping be a game changer in terms of the look of the game? Any others? Forget if it is "doable" or would require gobs and gobs of code change. I just want to understand what the "wish list" would be.
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:52 am
by SpaceJunk
Lightmaps also, so the features in the texture that are supposed to emit their own light (i.e. the typical tiny windows in big ships) or reflect it constantly (the hull around the tiny windows) aren't hued and darkened by the ambient light.
It has to be nice to watch an OH capship from a shadowed side and see all the little spots of light.