SY

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madpeople
Posts: 4787
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Location: England

Post by madpeople »

[edit]
download links:
version :6 download (extract to your allegiance\artwork folder)
version 6 mirror: link
version: 7 download mirror
version: 8 download
Version: 8 download - no pheonix
[/edit]

ok, so i'm on holiday so dont realy have time to explain everything properly.

the basic idea is to make each capship only good for one thing, and for them to be effective they need to be used together (TEAMWORK!)

firstly, flatten the sy tech tree
SY
-> LT class
-> Med class
-> Hvy class
-> Super hvy class?
-> Support class? (explain this later, an implimentation of the hvy sector support ship i mentioned else where, different to the MS one though (look for my post, if its on these boards)
-> ship speed

(corresponding techs in appropiate places, will expand it later)

lt class would be close range anti fighter ships (corvs, perhapse a new type of ship too).
they would be fast (top speed of 100)
quick turning
cost: 1000?
mounts lt Lrg shield
weakish, a single fig with galvs + dis could kill them fairly quickly if it was left alone (note here its an anti small ship cap so the lone fig wont be left allone), 3 figs with galvs could take one and win.
mounts 2 AC turrets (i'm changing what turrets are used for here)
driver can use hunters (maybe a mini AC?)

med class
medium speed (max 60, maybe 70?)
mounts med Lrg shield
cost: 3000?

dests are long range anti fighter caps,
mount hunter killers (that lock on in 1 sec / same as seekers, more cm resistant too)
no turrets
slow turning.
no turret
it should be able to kill a fig 5k away easily, but it can be killed by one close up since it cant turn round to lock missiles on (fighter can stay behind it) - needs either another dest further away to try and kill the fighter (provided the fig doesnt use the dest as cover, or a lt class ship to kill the fighter)
stronger hull

devs,
similar to now, but no turret. (can take a lt class ship easily, but need 5 to win vs a fully manned hvy class ship, 4 just looses)

hvy class
very slow (top speed of 40)
cost: 10k? (15k for super hvy class?)
turn slowly,
4 turrets,
sc turrets will fire slow moving high damage projectiles, about 1/sec - no use on fighters as they can dodge them (if you managed to hit a small ship with one its 1 hit kill), only things you can hit with these are other capships (lt class may be fast enough to get out the way, but not hvy class or med class) and bases (i'm thinking perhapse turrets are to be used for base killing)
perhapse one low damage, high speed, faster fire rate turret (1'st one so it gets taken first) for anti missile use, (only slightly effective vs fighters, really needs lt class for close support, to mop up what the dests didn't get at long range).
lots of hull

(cruisers are anti base caps, still get to use the missiles + use new sc turrets, battle ships are anti hvy class ships, use longtoms - which are sc turrets that do more damage and can damage bases, it can mount a lrm torpedo for use on other caps, med damage, xrm cruise speed (to supliment turrets, not for use by its self), doesn't mount anti base missiles)

roughly, i don't really have time to explain everything fully.

but for caps to be effective, you need to use different types, and to do that you need more people, so in small games caps would be weaker, in larger games they would be stronger.

in small games you might be able to use a lt class ship well, but if you got a hvy class one with no anti fighter support, a single fig could kill the cap in the time it takes to cross the sector (at 40m/s) (and note here the hvy class cap doesn't have anti fighter turrets, so it cant kill the fighter).

in large games you have the numbers to use lots of capships (now cheaper so you can afford to) and they will be effective, balanced by the fact the other team has lots of people to kill them.

you can still nan your cruiser, but without anti fighter caps (or fighters?), your nans are easy targets (following the 40m/s cap).

that's the general idea anyway
Last edited by madpeople on Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andon
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Post by Andon »

that sounds pretty cool.

And I don't think there would be anything more intimidating than a group of 10 or so cap ships coming through an Aleph.

If I was com, I'd have a Cruiser, two Destroyers, two Devasators, and four or five Corvettes. Covers all bases, and should be able to rip through nearly any sector. It would be hideously expensive, on the order of $26,000 or $27,000
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Barrager
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Post by Barrager »

I hate it. Devs should keep there turrets, and dests should get 2 ac turrets
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Shizoku
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Post by Shizoku »

Barrager wrote:
QUOTE (Barrager @ Jun 21 2007, 07:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I hate it. Devs should keep there turrets, and dests should get 2 ac turrets


Yes because something that can kill a ship with one missile from over 5k should have no weakness whatsoever.
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Barrager
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Location: Boston, Ma

Post by Barrager »

exactly! Besides we never see destroyers anyways and for the current cost of 6k I don't blame most people.

otherwise, I mainly don't see a solid fix for SY in the first place. Allegiance really isn't designed for it capitols. I know I'm not helping it at all but I have doubts that this would remedy the situation

My main complaint is it complicates things a lot, and people already suddenly become pretty stupid when they get their hands on a cap ship
Last edited by Barrager on Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BobtheHobo
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Post by BobtheHobo »

Fighter > Hvy Cap, Hvy Cap > Lt Cap, Lt Cap > Fighter.
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Will nan for food.
madpeople
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Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:00 am
Location: England

Post by madpeople »

revisions:
i'm pondering an upgrade system... (this is slightly separate from the main idea of specific ships being used for specific things)

all class upgrades cost 10k, and can yield multiple pieces of tech / ships (something you can research has an -> before it)
researching any mk 2 class upgrades your sy to a dry dock.

SY

-> LT class
gives:
lt corvett
sc turret 1
->Lt class mk2
gives:
med corvett
sc turret 2
dry dock
->Lt class mk3
gives:
corvett
sc turret 3

-> Med class
gives:
lt dest
lt dev
hunter killer 1
sky rip 1
->Med class mk2
gives:
med dest
med dev
hunter killer 2
sky rip 2
dry dock
->Med class mk3
gives:
dest
dev
hunter killer 3
sky rip 3


-> Hvy class
gives:
lt cruiser
sky cannon 1
-> Hvy class mk 2
gives:
med cruiser
sky cannon 2
dry dock
-> Hvy class mk 3
gives:
cruiser
battle ship
sky cannon 3
long tom

-> Support class
gives:
med assault ship
med support ship
med Assault Carrier
-> Support class mk 2
gives:
assault ship
support ship
Assault Carier

-> Support class mk 2
gives:
hvy assault ship
hvy support ship
hvy Assault Carrier

-> ship speed 1
-> lrg shield 2
-> hvy CM 2


dry dock
-> ship speed 2
-> lrg shield 3
-> hvy CM 3

notes,

support ship has 2 "laser nan" turrets, 1k range, like pnx lasers but they are blue smile.gif and they fix stuff. this ship cannot be repaired (no support ship trains!), the turrets are effective on small craft, but less effective on caps (this ship if for keeping fighters alive who may be defending other caps or doing something else) the laser nan turrets have the same level as whatever level on nan you have.

upgrading a ship gives it more armour, perhaps more energy etc if it makes sense (support class for example)

skycap is how it is now, but less effective on caps

hunter killer locks faster and is more cm resistant

sky cannon is an anti cap gun for cruisers (they don't get sky caps, each ship class is limited to the types of gun provided in its class). it fires slow moving high damage projectiles (if you manage to hit a small ship it dies in 1 hit), low ROF. for use on other med / hvy caps.

long tom is a more powerful version of sky cannon for battleships, it can damage bases.

skyripper, less effective on bases, perhapse lower rof (wanting this to be not as effective on fighters as it is now, i want this to be a anti lt/med/hvy cap gun)

corv - good close range anti fighters, no long range guns.
dest - good long range anti fighters, bad close range anti fighter. no anti fighter turrets
dev - anti cap ship. no anti fighter turrets
cruiser - main anti base cap (only one to mount xrm cuise + tac nukes), good vs med / hvy caps. no anti fighter guns
battle ship - hvy anti cap ship, can turn its turrets on bases though. no anti fighter guns
support ship - repairs nearby fighters and other small ships. no anti fighter guns
ass ship - same as now
ass carrier - same as now.

also, there is no generic lrg shield. lt lass get lt lrg shield, med get med lrg shield, hvy get hvy lrg shield. (more hp for heavier classes), but all get upgraded at the same time, and bringing in any of them gives the level you brought in.

it gives you the option to use sy for a specific purpose e.g. go lt class for using caps to attack/defend miners, support to help fighters. med to defend vs caps. hvy to attack bases with caps (but you need some other tech to support the hvy class else its a sitting duck vs anything other than hvy / med caps)
and you can mix and match, or go all classes (except maybe support) to go fully SY
and the different levels gives you the tech race you see in other tech paths, (but the improvements between class upgrades will be smaller e.g. lt corv and corv will be closer to enh fig to adv fig instead of lt sf to adv sf)

oh, barr, i reduced the cost of caps a because they are weakened individually, and need to be used to compliment each other, it is so that they all get some use, instead of just getting cruiser + 6 nans.
i'm making dests get used more not by cheesing them up, but by making it nescesarry (ok, not nescesarry exactly, it depends what you are using sy for and what kind of support you need) to use them (oh, and by improving HKs smile.gif )
Last edited by madpeople on Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Psychosis
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Location: California

Post by Psychosis »

Sounds interesting, but practical?

I would be up for testing out a DN CAP core
Auton
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Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 11:03 pm

Post by Auton »

Perhaps instead of making capships totally dependent on the shipyard, we set things up so that certain techpaths determine what caps you can get.

For example, maybe something like:
SY (Lv 1)
-Missile Frigate
-Carrier (requires Exp 1)
-Assault Ship (requires Tac 1)
-Corvette (requires Sup 1)

SY (Lv 2)
-Cruiser
-Destroyer (requires Tac 1, Exp 1)
-Devastator (requires Exp 1, Sup 1)
-AWACS (Can scan nearly whole sector, transmits lead indicator, can cloak.) (requires Tac 1, Sup 1)

That tree is by no means final though, and could be expanded to suit our needs if we feel it's required.

This idea will reduce the effectiveness of SY rushes because you won't have nearly the range of ships you would receive by going a tech and using caps to end the game. Plus, further teamwork would be required to keep the loss of, say, a tac from preventing you from using Assault Ships, Dests, or AWACS. It will also make using caps slightly more economical by having a couple caps on top of your tech instead of just upgrading a base 5 times over to get really big ships, but yet it'll still be expensive, perhaps even more so. Not only that, but when you have that many upgrades, you need to consider BIOS research times when balancing...
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aem
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Location: Charlotte, NC

Post by aem »

SY I think does leave by far the greatest room for improvement in DN. I'd like to see cap ships used more and become a much bigger part of the game.

I do like a class system. I'd just like to see SY as a more viable option by making it a better investment. Lowering the research cost of each class should probably be enough. Have light class start out at 7.5K, Medium class follow that at 10k, heavy class at 15K and super heavy 20k
Last edited by aem on Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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