rocks ROCK!

Discussion area for user-created Allegiance models, textures, voicechats, music, and other ingame content.
mdvalley
Posts: 324
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 8:00 am

Post by mdvalley »

The newer DX has software/hardware T&L built into the API, right? (I’m an OpenGL guy, too. A lot of the DX stuff is me guessing tongue.gif ) The older one didn’t. Alleg does all the T&L calculations itself, in its own libraries. And the engine is written with that in mind, making it all but impossible to bypass that code and replace it with DX calls. Alleg has its own “Matrix” class, and that’s passed around in the code to store a transformation. On top of that, the MDL files like to store custom transformations (or something like that), making it even harder to figure out when you can actually make the calls.

For lighting, watch the rocks sometime as they rotate. Observe how the lighting is not updated as it turns. Alleg calculates it once, and then loads that every time. Probably for the best; realtime software lighting is more than a poor CPU can take. The ships are like this too, but it’s harder to tell with them.

In conclusion, the software T&L is handled by Alleg, not DX, and the code itself is fighting against any improvements to it. Hence the whole “really big code change” aspect of it.


Keep all the polys triangular. It’s faster. And I don’t think Alleg can even handle non-triangular polys.
sgt_baker
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Post by sgt_baker »

mdvalley wrote:
QUOTE (mdvalley @ Dec 17 2006, 07:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The newer DX has software/hardware T&L built into the API, right? (I’m an OpenGL guy, too. A lot of the DX stuff is me guessing tongue.gif ) The older one didn’t. Alleg does all the T&L calculations itself, in its own libraries. And the engine is written with that in mind, making it all but impossible to bypass that code and replace it with DX calls. Alleg has its own “Matrix” class, and that’s passed around in the code to store a transformation. On top of that, the MDL files like to store custom transformations (or something like that), making it even harder to figure out when you can actually make the calls.

For lighting, watch the rocks sometime as they rotate. Observe how the lighting is not updated as it turns. Alleg calculates it once, and then loads that every time. Probably for the best; realtime software lighting is more than a poor CPU can take. The ships are like this too, but it’s harder to tell with them.

In conclusion, the software T&L is handled by Alleg, not DX, and the code itself is fighting against any improvements to it. Hence the whole “really big code change” aspect of it.
Keep all the polys triangular. It’s faster. And I don’t think Alleg can even handle non-triangular polys.


Yeah, I've been browsing the code for the last 30 mins and see it all now. This brings back the WTF feeling from the last time I looked at the engine.
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madpeople
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Post by madpeople »

right, so triangles are cool smile.gif
sgt_baker wrote:
QUOTE (sgt_baker @ Dec 17 2006, 07:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We were using a system along the lines of .mdl + .cvh -> Milkshape -> .3ds -> Edit model -> .3ds -> Milkshape -> .mdl + .cvh. Doing that resulted in all LODs and the hitbox appearing in separate layers of the .3ds file. (not that we used .3ds... we used .obj iirc).


well, if we decide to use the current hitboxes, and my models as an optional thing, then i need someone to;
open the rock's chv box in milkshape, export it in .3ds

once i have the box in 3ds max, i can re-size my rock to fit in it.

then i export my rock to .ms3d format and someone can convert it to alleg format. or i export it to .X format and i use the original artwork tools to convert it to alleg format, i need someone to tell me how to use the original tools to do this though.

if we decide to use my rocks with their own hit boxes, then

then i export my rock+cvh to .ms3d format and someone can convert it to alleg format. or i export it to .X format and i use the original artwork tools to convert it to alleg format, i need someone to tell me how to use the original tools to do this though.

...

hey, i could make some accurate cvh boxes for my rock, then make a low poly version of my rock which fits these cvh boxes quite well.

then we put my low poly rock and cvh boxes on the AU for everyone to use, and have the high poly rocks an optional download?

just been playing around,

left and right rocks are both 120 faces, middle is high res.
left i just used a multi res modifier on the highres one, right i made by hand, it has more pronounced dips and bumps, but the texture mapping went kinda funny on it :(

i could probably move the verts on the left one to make it more like the right one so it has the correct texture mapping too.

anyone got any comments on me making new low res rocks for general distribution which use the same hitbox as highres optional rocks?
Last edited by madpeople on Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lyncor
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Post by Lyncor »

Sexy as all hell.

Nice work mrgreen.gif
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madpeople
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Location: England

Post by madpeople »

who wants to look at my 5 HUGE round brown ROCKS!

[/kumquat]
bottom row shows the rock with its hitbox placed over it to show where they overlap (they don't much)

so yeah, plenty of options for face / vert counts
(yes, these are different rocks to last time, i re-made them so the texture mapping is correct)

i haven't made the oval rock yet, but it shouldn't be too hard

ooh, tech rocks too, they would need doing in future.

am i right using brgnd03bmp.mdl for the texture of the round rock? or should it be bgrnd05bmp.mdl
does the game use both for the round rock? that could be bad if it does, i have a crater on the round rock that matches the texture.. they all do actually..

also, i don't have milkshape, so i would need someone else to do the final conversion

also, how many verts should the hitbox have?
i assume you only want 1 hitbox for rocks and keep it simple.. i could do many hit boxes so you can edge your nose in the crater, but i think that would be unnecessary as you couldn't get very far in it.

p.s. for those who don't know what the plan is
all the above rocks have the same hitbox, so everyone collides with them the same so which model you use makes no difference to gameplay.
the lowest poly count is given to everyone via AU + included in the installer, people then can optionally download the higher poly rocks for additional eye candy.
Last edited by madpeople on Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mesial
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Location: Florida

Post by mesial »

You are right using brgnd03bmp.mdl. The brgnd05bmp.mdl is for the oval rock.
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madpeople
Posts: 4787
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:00 am
Location: England

Post by madpeople »

update from me and my senator

me first:
i have 10 rocks in .ms3d format, i need someone with milkshape to convert them to alleg format (.mdl)
i have 5 round rocks and 5 oval rocks, both have a range of quality from low poly (similar to current) to very high, most importantly all round rocks have the same hit box, all oval rocks have the same hit box

my senator:
the senate want these to be tested first (thats cool, i was planning on that anyway)

i need someone to host a server which has my new rocks on so they can be tested. (when someone has converted them)
then i will need people to play test the new rocks (will need someone to host the new files for people to download)

then we should be all set smile.gif
mesial
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Post by mesial »

I can test.
I can host the new files for download.
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madpeople
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Post by madpeople »

cool smile.gif

that just leaves
someone with milkshape to convert my .ms3d files to .mdl
someone to run a server with the new cvh boxes

ooh, i could test it in the training missions first, so save the server for later.. just need to get it into milkshape.. or if anyone knows how to use the original tools to convert .x files into .mdl i could do that
Last edited by madpeople on Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dogbones
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Location: Virginia

Post by Dogbones »

I've not kept up on all threads, there are a lot of them and lots of ideas. But having read this one, I think better looking (and higher res) textures a fantastic thing but I am really not sure about changing the hit box or going with any higher polygon models (until the graphics engine is reworked).

The only way I can see this working is if the new polygon models fit EXTREMELY well with the current hit boxes. Now if we currently have a broken hit box or one that adding a dozen or so polygons would greatly improve, than fine, but given what I have heard of the CPU based graphics engine, even doubling the poly count would be a no no.

I am all for great looking rocks, but how great do we need them OVER what just improving the textures gives us?

The hit box issue becomes much more critical when dealing with bases and that much more so for ships. Everyone needs to be using the same hit box whether they have an old clunker or an over clocked monster.

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