Discussion of Bios changes

[notjarvis]

QUOTE (HSharp @ Jun 22 2010, 05:22 PM) Basically if bios go home tech (though bios home sup works best because of figbees) it is saying you must defeat me in 20mins or I will be more powerful then you can comprehend, and you are just changing the 20mins to 30mins which is hardly the ideal solution.

It's the perfect solution if it were 40 minutes or so. If your team can't advance to advanced tech and be in their home in 40 minutes or so on a normal sized map, you really don't deserve to win.

I'd also consider a Gunship nerf of some sort too, as this is the great leveller for Bios in early Enhanced tech time for the other team.

Basically - flying as bios you should get beat up on for long periods of the game while the other team has a tech advantage, the payoff comes when your tech eventually trickles through and you will have an advantage.

QUOTE (HSharp @ Jun 22 2010, 05:50 PM)Bios has too many perks for their few nerfs and it's hard to balance a unique perk like ripping pods with standard nerfs.
Why not just give every faction an extra unique perk except Bios then?

It's hard to balance but makes up some of the unique flavour for that faction. Other things that are equally hard to balance include IC Ungalvable bases and RPs, Rix 6 second research times and SR, Belters tech keeping/picking, and Giga's special mines. Are you suggesting we remove all those too? Cos they re all hard to balance.

QUOTE Why don't we have all factions have exactly the same GA perk/nerfs but only have special perk/nerfs then? Surely that would be more fun?[/quote]
I don't even get what you're saying here really. If you are saying what I think you are saying - you are completely misrepresenting gb's point. Variety is good yo!

[zombywoof]

QUOTE (HSharp @ Jun 22 2010, 09:22 AM) Basically if bios go home tech (though bios home sup works best because of figbees) it is saying you must defeat me in 20mins or I will be more powerful then you can comprehend, and you are just changing the 20mins to 30mins which is hardly the ideal solution.

Actually, minimum time to bios figbees is 31 minutes, 1 minute for the techbase to build and 30 for figbees. That's with unlimited money. Truth be told, Bios has to mine for its techbase, and then we can start looking at cost.

It costs $12500 for bios figbees with lt boost 1. That's 20 minutes of time under current paydays (limiting factor here is Bios research time), but if we cut the paydays in half it will take 40 minutes (limiting factor here would be funds). That also includes NO GAs of any kind, no AB2, no TP2, and no other tech at all.

Now if Bios tries to get just the relevant tech (AB2, cruise boost, rip GAs 1 and 2, hull GAs 1 and 2, missile damage GAs 1 and 2, TP 1 and 2), it costs an additional $17500 which is currently an additional 25 minutes of paydaying, while under the new payday plan it would be 50 minutes.

While "You have to beat me in the next 40 minutes or I am an unstoppable behemoth" is a bit much, I hardly think "You have 90 minutes on the clock to win the game" is too much to ask of a team. You're grossly overestimating the ability of Bios to payday everything and anything.

And yes, if you let Bios mine, they will still $#@!ing curbstomp you with their home sup tactic. Which is why I also suggest increasing the fighter's size. Nerf bios' ability to one-sector strat, and then nerf Bios' sup a bit.

[Icky]

QUOTE (HSharp @ Jun 22 2010, 12:22 PM) Hardly. Bios already has enough special cheese that it can afford to lose one and still be very unique.

You all seem to be missing the point, Bios is awesome at turtling, not only that because their pods rip home its very easy for them to attack your miners, either die in the attempt or succeed and then get home to defend regardless of what ship they are attacking the miners in.

Basically if bios go home tech (though bios home sup works best because of figbees) it is saying you must defeat me in 20mins or I will be more powerful then you can comprehend, and you are just changing the 20mins to 30mins which is hardly the ideal solution.

Sharp is so smart, he figgered it out!

Also, it helps a lot in the turtling if all your ships have hvy cloak so you can slip out through int camps.

[RoboTel]

QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Jun 22 2010, 02:39 PM) Actually, minimum time to bios figbees is 31 minutes, 1 minute for the techbase to build and 30 for figbees.

It costs $12500 for bios figbees with lt boost 1. That's 20 minutes of time under current paydays (limiting factor here is Bios research time), but if we cut the paydays in half it will take 40 minutes (limiting factor here would be funds). That also includes NO GAs of any kind, no AB2, no TP2, and no other tech at all.

Now if Bios tries to get just the relevant tech (AB2, cruise boost, rip GAs 1 and 2, hull GAs 1 and 2, missile damage GAs 1 and 2, TP 1 and 2), it costs an additional $17500 which is currently an additional 25 minutes of paydaying, while under the new payday plan it would be 50 minutes.

I did not realize it meshed so well. Would anyone have an issue with just halving paydays(for now). It seems the largest arguments against bios are that they become unstoppable later on, but with this minor change it would tremendously decrease their ability to turtle.

[cashto]

Halving paydays is the must-do item. Bios tech costs half as much means it's twice as fast to payday as other factions. I can see no drawbacks to doing this, except should you be so incompetent to lose your last miner with no money in the bank, it'll take you 8 minutes to get a new one (minus cashboxes).

I'd also hit the GS with a nerf-bat economically. At 5000 it's almost a no-brainer. Raise it to 7500 or 10k and it'll be more of a gamble, probably delaying your techbase.

Bios starting with garrison is un-Biosy. What use is a gunship at the 20 minute mark anyways? It's sort of the Bios's equivalent of a patty ... an option to cover your early game weakness with a medium-powered dead-end ship.

Bios short build times are kinda gratuitous. I would be fine with removing that perk.

Increase the mass? Fine, but it'd probably make more sense just to remove the fuel perk ... no need to make a cloaked bios scout slower than it already is.

Most everything else ... meh.

[_SRM_Nuke]

I'm just curious, how many games have there been where a Bios team wins after having spent 5k on gunships first? I personally can't think of any. They are pretty easy to kill with a couple regular mini2 ints and buying gunships just delays a tech base. Its very rare to have a team successfully use Bios gunships. At least in my experience.

There was a main game yesterday where a Bios commander bought gunships, adv scouts and bombers before a tech base. They ended up losing to TF bombers before even getting enh tech.

[spideycw]

So yesterday there was a bios vs tf game (exp vs exp). About 15 minutes in bios had killed all of TF's miners and TF had killed all of Bios' miners. If paydays are halved would this have prevented TF from resigning 15 minutes in? If not then perhaps we have not hit upon the root of the problem yet.

[HSharp]

QUOTE (notjarvis @ Jun 22 2010, 07:35 PM) It's the perfect solution if it were 40 minutes or so. If your team can't advance to advanced tech and be in their home in 40 minutes or so on a normal sized map, you really don't deserve to win.

No No No NO! Do you really want it to be that when a team picks Bios that they will have to play for 40 mins to win? Also at P1 I know how long it takes for Bios to get figbees but in 25-30mins Bios can have enough tech to turtle up to anything bar a HoD. I used to hate Bios vs TF games because both factions were so cheesy and unless bombers are bought and used early it ends up for long grinding games, TF is less cheesy now but it's still a long grinding game so I still hate it, just a little less.

QUOTE It's hard to balance but makes up some of the unique flavour for that faction. Other things that are equally hard to balance include IC Ungalvable bases and RPs, Rix 6 second research times and SR, Belters tech keeping/picking, and Giga's special mines. Are you suggesting we remove all those too? Cos they re all hard to balance.[/quote]

I am saying Bios has more unique cheese then other factions that it can afford to lose one not get rid of all unique flavours.

Bios Unique Perks
-
Ripping Pods
Free Adv Bases
Heavy Cloak Ships

Bios Unique Nerfs
-
10min Research Time? (not really unique attribute)

Let's go overall the perks and nerfs then

Perks
-
Rippings Pods
Free Adv Bases
Heavy Cloak Ships
Cheap Tech
High Sensors
Low Sig
Agile Ships
Faster Shield Repair
Quicker Drone Build Times

Nerfs
-
10min Research Time
Weaker Shields
Expensive Tech Cons


Well that looks well balanced to me then

[_SRM_Nuke]

QUOTE (HSharp @ Jun 22 2010, 03:29 PM) No No No NO! Do you really want it to be that when a team picks Bios that they will have to play for 40 mins to win? Also at P1 I know how long it takes for Bios to get figbees but in 25-30mins Bios can have enough tech to turtle up to anything bar a HoD.

How would removing ripping pods stop this turtling you so hate?

[Icky]

QUOTE (_SRM_Nuke @ Jun 22 2010, 03:36 PM) How would removing ripping pods stop this turtling you so hate?

You don't need fwd bases to go on miner O runs. You can kamikaze and rip home.