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Hello Phoenix1. First off, the Hvy/Adv scouts, are useful, even though people do not purchase them first because adv tech is a higher priority. Adv/Hvy scouts come late game for dual nannage as tf, or for tp2, or just to drop some prox3 for fun (if you can afford it). Now gs' on the other hand, have no use past the 15-20 minute mark when you should have at least ehn tech up. They might give you a slight advantage for 10 minutes or so (if your team is able to use them correctly, which I doubt greatly). But nobody uses them because they are worthless late game and will hinder your economy, expansion, and ability to research real tech in the opening.

Also, what is all this bios talk nonsense. Since when does bios depend on GS to survive early game?

I think GS should be added to SY as a free ship when a SY is built. It can be used as defense in place of a corvette so you wont have to risk loosing 3k. You can modify its hull, guns, and whatnot to make it balanced compared to a corvette.

CrazyFingers wrote:QUOTE (CrazyFingers @ Aug 6 2009, 08:04 PM) Also, what is all this bios talk nonsense. Since when does bios depend on GS to survive early game?

This.

We didn't get GS in the end of the league vs. RT's IC, and they still didn't overpower us. Bios doesn't need this perk, and the GS are way more powerful than people think.

Yesterday I was on the painful side of a very good demonstration jbourne [bios] vs. Guitarism [Rix] where the bios GS utterly neutralised our rix enh figs (and our silly rix heavy scouts too). The 2k skycap range and fast speed is what makes them brutal, especially vs. sup.

If your Rix Enh figs can't take out GS, thats an issue with the Rix team and not because GS is so uber. Personally I wish more people would go Bios GS because they are like KB pinatas!

If your team has enh tech and half a clue, and equal number of players should have no issue taking out a GS, i.e. 3 Rix Enh figs.

Pedowich wrote:QUOTE (Pedowich @ Aug 7 2009, 03:02 PM) If your Rix Enh figs can't take out GS, thats an issue with the Rix team and not because GS is so uber. Personally I wish more people would go Bios GS because they are like KB pinatas!

If your team has enh tech and half a clue, and equal number of players should have no issue taking out a GS, i.e. 3 Rix Enh figs.

Team wasn't bad and we did take out many. They still achieved their goals (protecting miners, raiding ours), while we rarely achieved ours.

Think about the problem for (especially rix) sup. Fighters are both slow and fragile, and rix figs don't even missiles to take the edge off the GS range advantage. If we'd have had rix mini 2 ints instead, those GS would have been a waste of money by that stage, but not so vs. figs.

Adept wrote:QUOTE (Adept @ Aug 7 2009, 06:42 AM) Bios doesn't need this perk, and the GS are way more powerful than people think.

What perk? In my suggestion it's actually a nerf to GS for Bios. And Bios doesn't need GS, noone does really. That's what we're trying to fix

It's very likely there will be a change that will make me happy. I'll be glad with any of the three:

a) nerf and move to garrison
b) just move to garrison
c) move them to SY, maybe with adjustments



I assume b) will lead to nerfs anyway in the long run, but at least it will be more fair.

So what's next? We move TP1 to garrison because its not fair Bios can get that in 10 mins too?

Better yet, lets just remove starbase altogether. After all, nobody buys it anyways, unless they're Bios.



Gunships are fine the way they are. Yes those dual skycaps are strong - thats why it takes a base time & cost of 20K and 4 minutes to get them. If you want the early power you shaft yourself the cost of a techbase & enh. tech for it. Bios can get them in 10 minutes and no sooner. No, Bios doesn't need them but they're a good defensive option to hold on until enh. tech comes up. I've seen Bios teams lose with and without them countless times so it depends on who you have for pilots.

I'm sorry that you think rushing nanned gunships with 2 Rix figs should be a solution to them. That team lost because it wasn't coordinated, and once hvy scouts came up everyone decided to screw around in those instead. Gunships punish people who think this is Quake in Space because you cannot play the hero and go solo a miner with one sitting on it.

On a further note, the two figs that did go after the gunship killed the nan and got it down to half hull. One more fig and it would've been toast. Shame the rest of the figs in the sector decided to chase butterflies or go try and solo the miner 800m away instead.

I'll try to put some of the ideas so far (and from the least to the most dramatic-ish)...

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1) Leave GS alone.


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2ai) Move GS research to Garrison.


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2aii) Move GS research to Garrison, reduce research cost to $7.5k.


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2bi) Move GS research to Garrison and give GS AC unless they have dependent Starbase, in which case GS can also have SC, reduce research cost to $5k.


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2bii) Move GS research to Garrison and give GS AC unless they have dependent SY, in which case GS can also have SC, reduce research cost to $2.5k.


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2ci) Move GS to SY and gain tech when SY is built.


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2cii) Make GS a Bios only ship and move GS to SY and gain tech when SY is built.


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2d) Move GS research to Garrison and dependent on techbase or a starbase, reduce cost to $5k.


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3) Have a Lt (in garrison) and Hvy (in starbase) GS, research cost of both at $5k. Lt similar to current though with mini-SC, Hvy similar to a bbr -> hvy bbr.


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4) Move GS research to Garrison and dependent on techbase or a starbase, perk hull and signature ~25%


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Other Suggestions


A) Change pilot mini-AC to dual gatts (exception?! for Rix? (TF?)).

Change (lower) GS rip time to that of a bomber.

Ci) Lower GS ship cost to $50 per.

Cii) Lower GS cost to $1 per.

Ciii) Increase GS cost to $500 per. (presumably if GS are effectively perked)

D) Give GS mini-SC (combined perhaps with moving them to Garrison and (?) reduce research cost).

E) Tie GS access to LRM (& killer) to dependency on Tac.


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Now is that about the main ideas, if so we can start narrowing it down so we can get a forum poll on what general direction to go and narrow it down even more.

Xeretov wrote:QUOTE (Xeretov @ Aug 7 2009, 09:04 PM) Bios can get them in 10 minutes and no sooner. No, Bios doesn't need them but they're a good defensive option to hold on until enh. tech comes up.

Bios can get them with 10k and in time for them to actually be useful. You yourself say bios doesn't need them, and that they are a nice defensive option to hold on to.

Why should this nice defensive option be bios only. The only reason I've seen is tradition, that's how people are used to them. That is not a good reason.

Adept for someone with a name like that you sure are dense. This has been outlined like a bazillion times.

guitarism wrote:QUOTE (guitarism @ Jul 28 2009, 10:31 PM) I've always thought of the GS as the stopgag measure, mainly for BIOS until they get their tech base up, and then the next 10minutes until they get their enh tech. When you see it from another faction, usually rix it's because rix's range and damage bonuses make it that much more powerful, able to step above some factions enh tech on occasion.

So in summary - GS are less then Enh tech. Why do we want to make them easier to get for factions at the start to give them an overwhelming advantage at the 2/3 min mark? Everyone will buy GS then. As it is, they are a niche ship usually for defensive manuvers only, and usually only seen in BIOS games as a stopgag until real tech comes up.

cashto wrote:QUOTE (cashto @ Jul 28 2009, 10:57 PM) GS is a dead-end tech, a stopgap (*cough*) solution for situations where you either can't get tech up fast enough (Bios) or, in extemely rare circumstances, need a tech to defend with while you can get your techbase back up.

Xeretov wrote:QUOTE (Xeretov @ Jul 29 2009, 05:44 AM) GS are fine as they are now. Somebody said a while back that its one of the more balanced pieces of tech in the core and I'd have to agree with them.

It makes Bios very hard to attack in the early game, true, but it still takes them at least 10 minutes to get those gunships up. And once you have mini2 ints or gat2/dumb2/boost2 enh. figs they are very easy to kill with even numbers. I'd say the only reason people think they're overpowered is because those same people are rushing the GS alone trying to be heroes.

A Bios team using GS for miner or base D are tying up 3-4 people minimum (3 in the GS, one nan) and in your average 15-15 game that is quite a bit of manpower. It just means the other team has to form up before attacking the GS and miner rather than stream in one by one.

Pedowich wrote:QUOTE (Pedowich @ Jul 29 2009, 08:23 AM) Bios has a tech hole right now. You have at least 10 mins for ANY tech, but they filled that with nice figs that can drop prox. Most games I've played Bios techbase isn't up before GS, so let's assume you have a tech at 10 mins in for argument. Then you have an additional 10 mins before you get ENH tech.

Between that 10-20 mins you have GS, which aren't completely uber but are better than basic figs. They aren't mobile, and they tie up a lot of players, but they work for miner/con d early game, when your basic figs would otherwise be up against enh/adv tech.

Without GS, or the THREAT/possibility of GS, Bios would be bomb rushed before 20 mins in 80% of games, because they wouldn't be able to stop it.

Xeretov wrote:QUOTE (Xeretov @ Jul 29 2009, 08:46 AM) This. While the other team mines to hvy ints in 16 minutes you're still using either the same basic figs you had at the game start or light ints. You're a little better off if you manage to find & PU mini2/gat2 but you're still on the back foot for a while. GS helps even that field while not being so overpowering that a team with enh. tech can't kill them.

A couple of hvy ints or adv figs can rip a GS apart very quickly though, so I do pity the Bios team that doesn't kill any enemy miners for 20 minutes.

Hellsyng wrote:QUOTE (Hellsyng @ Aug 4 2009, 04:56 AM) Bios under a better than average comm can do without GS. But nerfing them like Adept is suggesting would make it so every Bios comm would have to do without. Thats a silly nerf which makes it harder for Bios to defend themselves to Adv tech which is already difficult enough.

In 90% of games I play a Bios comm buys GS along with bbrs and adv scouts.

This would make Bios be played less IMO. Why try to balance a TECH with a nerf that would hinder a whole Faction?

I'm not sure what you don't understand.