Libyan rebels capture parts of tripoli

[Adept]

QUOTE (MrChaos @ Aug 28 2011, 05:12 PM) Adept

My patience has run out and I have learned all I can from you. Good day sir

MrChaos

Can you PM me about what upset you? Non intentional, and I honestly don't know what button I managed to inadvertantly press.

I apologise for any insult you feel I made.

[Adept]

QUOTE (_SRM_Nuke @ Aug 28 2011, 05:32 PM) Where do you get this information that the US was opposed to getting involved? Stop watching Fox News maybe? Maybe you are just trolling but you sound ridiculous. The tea party types are not the US, they are not the US government and do not create or in any way represent US policy. When the Commander-in-Chief says something, it happens. Seems pretty clear where the US position has stood since Obama made regime change the national policyback on March 3rd.

Er, I'm not trolling, and I watch BBC, Deutche Welle and Aljazeera, not Fox.

I did try to say that I'm quoting (to the best of my memory) stuff I read in Helsinki Times, the BBC news site and other european media. I honestly don't know why you guys seem so thin skinned on this subject.

QUOTE And how did you expect the French to take out air defenses? With what bombers? And what reconnaissance capability? Their jets would've been shot down. You euros didn't even have enough bombs to carry out the mission. And then when you did takeover, not only did it drag on, you left Kadhafi's artillery and scuds in tact, leaving 20,000 Libyans to perish. You let Misrata be turned into Mogadishu on the Med while entire towns were levelled. And then you bombed rebel positions repeatedly. From my perspective, Libya looks like a total failure by NATO.[/quote]
French have quite a lot of ground attack jets. The Rafale numbers are still low, but they are hardly the only ones they have. British Tornado's are not as new as they used to be, but they are plenty capable still.

Seriously you think Libyan air defences would have defeated the airfoce and navy of France and UK?

NATO wasn't given anything like a free hand by the UN resolutions, let's remember. They couldn't fully commit to being the rebel's air wing or anything like that.

[takingarms1]

I wasn't aware they were limited by UN resolutions? I thought they were limited by their own unwillingness to do anything more than commit air power.

Which, apparently, did the job. Maybe not as good as it could have been, but the rebels won didn't they?

also, wouldn't it just make the most sense for the US to lead it? I mean aren't we really the only nation with the capability and assets to perform this kind of mission on such short notice? And isn't that the reason that was given by NATO for when the US first started leading the thing? Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought most NATO countries militaries were primarily defensive without much capability to project force beyond their borders, aside from the US.

Oh, and you're welcome.

[MrChaos]

What an oppurtunity for a teachable moment for the world EU fanboys!

The Syrians are calling for help right now! No oil to speak of, none of the taint of revenge for lost lives, no one even actively trying to kill any one in the back in your neighborhoods, and it's even on the Med like Libya! Hey their government and despot have killed thousands of Syrians, who were protesting peacefully, while demanding change and the main guy is a @#(!head to boot! It just must make your heart go pitty pat with eagerness to get started.

You'll have pure Paladian joy in doing "the right thing". You can show us all how to correctly kill the people you want to "help". Its boots on the ground this time baby and I'm sure you only use small arms cause putting your own soldiers in maximum danger to insure you count coop correctly is all important. I'll bet the entire world will admire the righteous death and destruction you'll rain down on the Syrians

What are you waiting for, we'lll go too because as we've heard time and time and time again we owe you.


Now for real
Until you do the same thing for Syria stop this stupid $#@!ing nonense about your morale superiority when YOU kill innocents via remote control. Hey you wanted to be in charge, so accept the bloodbath you wrought when intervening in Libya. I'd suggest getting some French or Italian (the Brits have got a snout full already time for one of the others to step up) boots inside Libya before it turns into another Iraqi. After all it can't be the Libyians fault if they start killing each other in an orgy of revenge now can it.

[Raveen]

There are some differences between Syria and Libya but as MrC says, we should be doing more than we are (and by we I mean the pro-democratisation countries) for the Syrian people.

I think one of the things keeping us out of Syria is the promise of reform by the incumbent leadership. Of course, that's most likely stalling for time but it's a glimmer of hope that was never actively apparent in Libya.

[MrChaos]

Syria would be a hornets nest, and if we have learned nothing from a decade of dead boys and girls, missing limbs, and lives shattered on ALL sides we had best think long and hard before getting involved because the cure is usually worse then the diease.

There are fellows at work with missing limbs, in their 30s, and professionally degrees. Chances are they misplaced them via Iraqi or Afghanistan. I'm an observant, thoughtful person in real life and the thing that makes me cringe is watching other people reacting to them. It has to be rage enducing to be treated as if they were broken all day and all night. It made me sad to realize this was the rest of this man and others like him life.

It's a high price to pay and the reward is generally disdain and a lasting legacy of being the bad guy.

To be clear
DuscanC and myself agree that war is an ugly business and the price paid at the local level is very high no matter the reasons or political motives.


I'll leave off now since it is at the very least impolite of me to skrew others with their own words and "winning" this kind of discussion is not really winning at all.

MrChaos

[Adept]

I think I'll just walk away from this thread. Mr C seems really bitter, and I don't want a shouting match.

Doesn't look like there can be a calm discussion about this.

[germloucks]

chalk it up to a drunk post or something. He isnt usually such a dick.



secondly, syria has no oil so $#@! em.

[Broodwich]

i dont see what is "shouting" about mrc's post, hes just telling it like it is. Adept has no rebuttal so he is attempting to claim the moral "high road" like he normally does in similar circumstances and say he's leaving the discussion

[MrChaos]

meh $#@! it