Nerf Bios and Rix, perk IC

[NightRychune]

well, you see, GT's economy was great because you were never not mining next to a base that people could undock from and d the miners, and, gasp, when you do the same thing with other factions your miners live longer too!

[Broodwich]

you would first have to revert the gt bases to all being the research station model. one of the only things i hate about gt is docking at their broken ass stations

[zombywoof]

QUOTE (Jimen @ Apr 5 2010, 02:52 PM) I'm surprised Rix does that well, considering how often pug players tend to $#@! up the use of SRs. That's definitely gotta be the Rix hvy scouts meme at work - since Terran uses it all the damn time, a crapload of voobs have seen it in action, and it's become annoyingly popular.

Rix is just $#@!ing awesome. Even if you $#@! up the use of SRs you're still flying goddamn rix figs which have more raw damage than most mini2 ints. That's basic tech with enh-level powuh, and they're twice as effective against miners/cons than those mini2 ints. The only factions that really demand high-quality SR use (other than Bios, but Bios is cheese) are IC and Dreg. Dreg has paper hull on their miners and a decent rix fig can rip it to shreds in an instant, while IC has a two minute build time, and Rix can open by pushing their TP taking twice as much map as the IC team in the first set of cons. Dreg too, since Dreg has lt ints. The fact that Rix has SRs makes the lack of opening homerip not nearly as devastating as it is for, say, IC or GT, and many of the top-level int whores think Rix ints are the best ints in the game.

In short, Rix without SRs are a solid opening faction. Rix with good SRs are a dominant force in the early game which can win a game in five minutes.

QUOTE The same argument doesn't hold for Bios, though, because I haven't seen anything to indicate that Bios is played overwhelmingly by vet comms.[/quote]
Bios is cheese. I'm surprised there are still people who deny it, and more surprised that nothing has been done about it.

QUOTE I'm not surprised at GT's poor showing, and in fact the only thing that I find interesting about it is the fact that this is the first time I've seen anyone acknowledge it in the CC forum, even though it's basically common knowledge. People whine about how X and Y need a buff, but never once for GT.[/quote]
It's because Onion smells.

As for the stats: Going off what MrChaos said earlier, a lot of the stats are "flavor of the month" things. As an example, this month I'm like 4-1 with gigacorps and probably 1-3 with IC. Does that mean IC is @#(! compared to giga? Not really. And if you look back to CC_04/05, who was the top of that list? Gigacorps at around 60% of wins.

Now this goes back farther than most of you remember, but during CC04 and CC05, Spidey did an extraordinarily large number of Gigacorps games. I think he was trying to prove a point or something, but the point is you can see the results: giga has a lot of wins because spidey happened to command a lot of giga. Before you say, "Would spidey have commed giga if it wasn't good?" let me answer your idiot question with another question, "Have you ever talked to spideycw in your time here at allegiance? This is the guy who does stupid-ass @#(! like opening with a spec con just so he can get a challenge out of idiots like me."

The point is, MrC is right. It doesn't matter if IC is 1-20 because Twit(0) got GC and didn't know how to stop being IC and screwed up twenty late-night games. That tells us absolutely nothing about the faction itself. Especially since the late-night 5v5s that are lucky to grow to 10v10s bear about as much resemblance to a 10v10 launched game of allegiance as I do to a volvo. Then you have to take into account the likelyhood of a mirror match. IC vs IC is more common than, say, Belters vs Belters. If it's IC vs IC, that's 1 win and 1 loss automatically. In order to interpret these stats, you have to take into account what's going on in the community.

Thus, without further ado, I break down what this voob feels is the reason behind the faction stats:

TF: I've seen a few high-level coms doing TF lately. I'm not sure TF needs much of a nerf, but those ints sure are a pain in the ass and could stand to be a bit fatter.

Bios: Dear god, this is the faction that everyone turtles with but is ridiculously powerful early game (prox figs = awesome, and 60s build times) and stupidly powerful late game (sensors upgrade, sig upgrade, cheap-ass tech). Needs nerf, preferably to its econ imo. I'd like to see it have 1/2 paydays personally, which will virtually cut in half the amount of money bios has on a payday econ, and since most voobs who win with bios use a payday econ...

Gigacorps: ... I'm just going to put myself out there and say that if you're losing to giga either you or your team are idiots. If people learned to fly against giga giga wouldn't be such a problem. It starts with "Yes, you can dis2 their bases" and ends with "but is that always a good idea?"

Rix: Rix rox, but a bad team or bad commander can ruin it pretty quickly. Rix is my expansion techpath of choice, personally. If you want to nerf them, removing front miniac will stop the late night cheese tech 'problem,' but spidey kicking Terran in the balls will do pretty much the same thing and is much more fun to watch.

Omicron: 50%, perfectly balanced

Dreg: I am not surprised at their position at all. Their ints are even easy for me to hit and sup was hit pretty hard with the removal of heavy boost. Also being the only faction with a sensor nerf hurts them a lot. It is literally impossible to put Dreg probes in places where they will see but won't be seen, which hurts the little lizards a lot.

IC: How the $#@! did IC get down here? Oh wait, I know... because IC exp isn't an unstoppable powerhouse. Properly used SRs stop IC Exp before it even gets started. Giga $#@!ing sup took map from IC exp the other day, and while they lost it temporarily, got it back when figbees came online. IMO, and feel free to mock me or put me on ignore, the way to beat IC is to shove cons in its face. Make them suck on their 2 minute build time and make sure you have bases where they want theirs. Other than that, IC's ints are pretty good, but not uber enough to help out the fact that IC is a one-trick pony. IC will be helped when a SY nerf hits (say, CC_09) and people are willing to turn that button back on.

Belters: 07 -> 08 saw belters drop from 3rd best to 2nd worst... and heavy booster's removal was the main nerf. Coincidence? I think so, actually. Belters have historically been low-preformers according to the stats page, and I personally think it's because they're cripplingly easy to shoot. It also doesn't help that they, kind of like IC, are a bit of a one trick pony: sup or bust! Their figbees are weak too, which hurts their sup a lot. When 07 came around, that was the big shipyard change, and Belters seemed (to many) unstoppable with their SY. Then people realized that Belters sy actually sucks because they don't get anything that can mount skyrip, and Virulence stuck to longtom gunships.

Ga'Tarran: I hate comming GT, I hate flying GT, and I hate HTTing GT. Their economy is not weak by any stretch and their only major problems are the lack of figbees (PTs just aren't quite as good) and the @#(!ty figs of @#(!tyness which can go die in couch fires. GT scouts are awesome, though, and their are the second most sup-resistant faction behind IC (Palis are ungalvable, which gives you an extra option for ungalvable forward bases) and their HTTs are better than all non-bios HTTs. Possible perks? Letting PT bbrs mount IonBooster would help a ton, actually.

Anyways there you have it: flame on.

[Drizzo]

I know most people will tl;dr it so I'll pick out the favourite parts.

QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Apr 6 2010, 04:35 AM) Rix is just $#@!ing awesome. Even if you $#@! up the use of SRs you're still flying goddamn rix figs which have more raw damage than most mini2 ints.

QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Apr 6 2010, 04:35 AM) and Rix can open by pushing their TP taking twice as much map as the IC team in the first set of cons.

QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Apr 6 2010, 04:35 AM) Oh wait, I know... because IC exp isn't an unstoppable powerhouse.

QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Apr 6 2010, 04:35 AM) the way to beat IC is to shove cons in its face.

QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Apr 6 2010, 04:35 AM) IC's ints are pretty good, but not uber enough to help out the fact that IC is a one-trick pony

QUOTE (phoenix1 @ Apr 6 2010, 04:35 AM) [P1 on belters]
It also doesn't help that they, kind of like IC, are a bit of a one trick pony: sup or bust!

[Solamnus]

thank you Drizzo nice summary

[Adept]

Rain also fixed some of the GT doors, but I think the CC team already has a fix from somebody else.

The bases are awful at the moment. Not only the doors, but there are also those infuriating invisible walls. Nothing unfixable of course.

[Koln]

This discussion has come to "nerf bios" so making another thread for it would be interesting for those defending that hypothesis.

Also i don't know why should we perk IC. It's so awesome right now. If people lose with it it's either because they suck (remember that there are a lot of way to suck) or because the other team was awesome.

I'm in for the nerf on rix hvy scouts voob-proof front mini ac cannon, though.

[Malicious Wraith]

QUOTE (NightRychune @ Apr 5 2010, 04:36 PM) Bios: Revert the con, miner, and carrier build times to 90s. Gunships are also a problem, and on the overall scheme of things this and the problem with corvettes is solved by reducing the particle speed of Skycap by 50% and adjusting the particle lifetime in order to compensate, reducing them back to 1.25 levels. Currently they are far, far too accurate for an AoE weapon that any idiot voob can use well.

No. Halve the paydays.

[Compellor]

QUOTE (Malicious Wraith @ Apr 6 2010, 08:22 AM) No. Halve the paydays.

I've seen worse ideas. Even if you merely cut them by a third they'd still have the most powerful payday economy in terms of teching up. That'd nerf their ability to buy cons on paydays something fierce, but there's no particular reason they should be able to do that.

[Drizzo]

Does BIOS see much play time in SGs? No. Why? Because if you go BIOS you can bet your opponent will go IC, Dreg, or Rix and put consistent 10+ lt int [or fighter] miner rushers on your ass. BIOS can not payday a techbase if it loses all of its miners within the first 8 minutes of a game.

BIOS is the best pug faction, the stats will show that, however, where do you see BIOS winning SGs?

The problem behind BIOS is pretty much what brood said. Nobody rushes miners in the opening phases of the game anymore. Most PUG commanders are under the Aarm style of command where they play passively and just mellow out to advanced tech and maybe order 1 or 2 miner rushes, but all in all they suck pretty bad.

For clarification, they suck pretty bad because they don't do half of what aarm does to make him one of the best.