About the restructuring

Semarin · Post by **Semarin** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:04 pm

Bacon wrote:QUOTE (Bacon @ Apr 23 2007, 03:01 PM) So.... does that mean Thal is really in charge?

Always has been, always will be. I hope.

Zapper · Post by **Zapper** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:08 pm

madpeople · Post by **madpeople** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:03 pm

ShadowFoxx wrote:QUOTE (ShadowFoxx @ Apr 23 2007, 07:09 PM) Eeeeh doesn't that defeat the purpose of this change then? From what I understood ASGS polling is to "replace" the squabbling of the senate to enact the popular will on the game... or at least represent the people. But this is looking like something else. I wouldn't mind some sort of checks and balances I don't think any 1 person should have complete control over the whole game.

polls arent final, they are a measuring stick to tell the people who make the decisions what the community think, they can be final if the person making the decision says they are, or they can be completely ignored if they want.

madpeople wrote:QUOTE (madpeople @ Apr 22 2007, 11:37 PM) i think this actually has the best of both worlds.

the ZL can ask the community what they think with asgs poll (ballot initiave), but then the ZL (senator in the above) can use the information (resources un-available to public) they have to decide to go with the community or not as its their decision in the end.

also, the ZL can discuss things with other ZL's of their zone so its not a total dictatorship.

also, the ZL can just make a post in their zone, people who are active and actually read that zone can respond, but people who know nothing about say art dev and never read the art forum wont reply because they don't see it where as a asgs poll would ask them things they don't know about.
so, its all good, lets see how well it goes /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

MrChaos · Post by **MrChaos** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:04 pm

The Senate was mostly a place for angry whining to go, be force fed growth hormones, and skinned for the material to make pod seat covers.

edit

Semarin · Post by **Semarin** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:05 pm

MrChaos wrote:QUOTE (MrChaos @ Apr 23 2007, 04:04 PM) The Senate was mostly a place for angry whining to go, be force fed growth hormones, and skinned for the material to make pod seat covers.

edit

I see what you did there...

Post by **Tigereye** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:17 pm

Semarin, another response to your #4 from above:

The reason why the community wasn't polled about the restructuring is because this was a decision made by Thalgor. He restructured the community in a way that will improve it.
So in short: it wasn't up to the community.

Now that Thal's restructured things, we should all be able to work more easily.

--TE

Grimmwolf_GB · Post by **Grimmwolf_GB** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:34 am

I don't like the fact that the senate was removed like that. There was absolutely no warning at all, no communication. GB even had a senator election that ended one week ago. I was not informed that it was pretty pointless to hold it. If you want to remove the senate and with it a 3 year+ institution, you owe it to the participants to at least tell them beforehand. Otherwise it is more or less an insult to them. Combine that with the open letter from Thalgor and you got a real insult.

QUOTE one quickly comes to the realization that the Senate hinders progress more than it helps. A few months ago when trying to organize a major squad tournament, the Senate hindered Ozzy's efforts by being a layer of beaurocracy which stifled Ozzy's organization. When trying to work on the code and decide which features should be worked on next, Dogbones encountered beaurocracy as well which has slowed down development since R3.[/quote]

The senate let him do his stuff in the OC and did not interfere anymore. Some people found it very entertaining to piss on jgb's effort to create a league yet it did not result in any change.
The discussion of features in the senate was its purpose. The rewriting of the constitution was put on hold because the senate was waiting for more than two months for Thalgor to say anything at all. Again, there was no reply, no warning, no: "you don't need to work on it anymore, because we will just throw it in the bin anyway."

While I understand, that it is Thal's and Pook's systems this thing runs on (and aarm's, TE's, beauty's and GrimmwolfPkkZapper's server), I don't like how the change was made.

Also, who represents a person against the @alleg? No-one. Up until now, there was always the senate to review a case, to speak for the squaddie or merc. Now it is up to BV and the @alleg crew and Pook to decide the ban times and that's it. If a person is lucky, he will find a loyal buddy in the @alleg, if not, tough luck.
Is there a plan for some sort of discussion or will a game ban finally result in a forum ban as well (something I was very much against)?

Sorry, but this change went too far. It pretty much sucks. I am quite happy, that I am not part of the @alleg and senate anymore as it very much insults my feeling of justice and respect.

Dengaroth · Post by **Dengaroth** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:43 am

I don't know what you're complaining about, Grimm. When I asked you a while ago what purpose the senate fulfills, you answered to the effect of "It's fun to play politicians".

Just about all the Senate did in the last year was: create a crisis that led to a temporary unavailability of the game for everyone (reducing ban times for repeat offenders/known troublemakers) discuss about how everything within Alleg should be within its jurisdiction, with the Senate benevolently outsorcingGoodbye, Senate. You will not be missed.

edit: Oh yeah, and standardized ban times. Which were only needed because of the Senate in the first place.

Grimmwolf_GB · Post by **Grimmwolf_GB** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:03 am

Please deng, also read the rest of my post.
The senate did not create the friday 13th event, if that's what you are refering to. It also did not pull the plug on anything, it just wanted to discuss lifetime bans. For some that was obviously an insult, but I believe that you need to discuss lifetime bans handed out on the basis of forum posts.

I was trying to promote the standard ban times, because up until then, it was up to the @alleg to hand out a time of their chosing. How is that a senate created problem? Now we have the situation, where an @alleg can hand out a punishment and possibly no discussion follows, because his squad is not represented in @alleg. That's no improvement.

Yes, Deng, the senate was also fun, I liked it, but that is not a bad thing.

Dengaroth · Post by **Dengaroth** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:39 am

Grimmwolf_GB wrote:QUOTE (Grimmwolf_GB @ Apr 24 2007, 10:03 AM) I was trying to promote the standard ban times, because up until then, it was up to the @alleg to hand out a time of their chosing. How is that a senate created problem?

Do the judges in Germany find their verdicts overruled by Parliament members on a daily basis?

It is a senate created problem, because by revisiting/overruling bans handed out by people who have authority over the domain, you're subverting that authority, thereby forcing the need to create something said enforcer can wave in your face and say "See? I went by the book. Now go away and let me do my job."

To go back to your previous post (which I didn't want to perform an autopsy on, but apparently not doing so means I "haven't read the rest" of your post, so fine):

Grimmwolf_GB wrote:QUOTE (Grimmwolf_GB @ Apr 24 2007, 09:34 AM) Also, who represents a person against the @alleg? No-one. Up until now, there was always the senate to review a case, to speak for the squaddie or merc. Now it is up to BV and the @alleg crew and Pook to decide the ban times and that's it. If a person is lucky, he will find a loyal buddy in the @alleg, if not, tough luck.

You know what? Don't do stupid @#(! and this won't be an issue in the first place. If you absolutely cannot stop yourself from doing stupid @#(!, well, you deserve what you've got coming. And frankly, I put way more trust in the common sense of people in the current setup than I did in the majority votes of an arbitrarily chosen group of people with no defining virtue beyond "being the member of an arbitrarily defined group of people that showed up to three SGs".

I still don't get this. Why is "players vs. law enforcement" an issue at all? You're a player, you're supposed to follow the law. If you don't, the law enforcement handles it. We're not talking two equals in a quarrel here. Whining that one of the participants of this situation has the upper hand is sort of... pointless. It simply follows from the nature of the situation.

Grimmwolf_GB wrote:QUOTE (Grimmwolf_GB @ Apr 24 2007, 10:03 AM) The senate did not create the friday 13th event, if that's what you are refering to. It also did not pull the plug on anything, it just wanted to discuss lifetime bans. For some that was obviously an insult, but I believe that you need to discuss lifetime bans handed out on the basis of forum posts.

Try "A history of stirring up @#(! with some forum stupidity as a cherry on top" instead.

Grimmwolf_GB wrote:QUOTE (Grimmwolf_GB @ Apr 24 2007, 10:03 AM) Now we have the situation, where an @alleg can hand out a punishment and possibly no discussion follows, because his squad is not represented in @alleg. That's no improvement.

That's not true - the rants forum is back now, everything will work like it always has.

Grimmwolf_GB wrote:QUOTE (Grimmwolf_GB @ Apr 24 2007, 10:03 AM) Yes, Deng, the senate was also fun, I liked it, but that is not a bad thing.

Sure... but when "it's fun" is the first reason for its existence that comes to your mind, that indicates a problem, don't you think?

p.s. I enjoy this discussion greatly - hope I'm not pissing you off, Grimm. If I am, please say so and I'll drop the subject.