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maybe some history of how the situation got started might be instructive

http://www.marxists.org/subject/arab-world/lutsky/ch27.htm



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_Protocol

The IDF target civilians all the tine, and use illegal collective punishment. The state of Israel is conducting a systematic land grab in occupied areas. When the Palestinians try to resist, they are just branded terrorists, and slaughtered 10 to 1 "in retaliation".

I guess TA missed gems like white phosphosous bombing a UN school, and using palestinian children and whole families as human shields.

I wonder TA, do you feel that a state has no more responsibilities than individual militants? For some reason the acts of individual palestinians justify the systematic campaign of oppression and violence by the state?

The problem with arguing in circles like this is that we know who the usual Israel apologists are, and they're all American. These are the people who might influence the US government to stop sending its cash over there and standing up for Israel against the international community. Now obviously the Palestinians aren't and shouldn't be free from blame but like I have said many times over, Israel needs to be the bigger man in this situation. I mean logically, it's the only way things will ever proceed beyond what we have now. That is the goal, right?

No peace plan will ever work unless Israel decides to implement it. Say all you want about ceasefires being broken, the Palestinians really can't do much regardless so it's a moot point. I'm not sure how anyone could suggest they have any real political power. When they start bringing airstrikes to the bargaining table, maybe I'll be concerned for Israel's safety then.

If the US cuts off all support for Israel because US citizens are sick of this nonsense, Israel will probably change its tune with the quickness. Or it won't, but at least the US will be out of the picture. The only reason this probably won't happen is that way too many Americans support Israel for some reason. Jesus? I don't even know. At least TA has a more nuanced view of the situation, even if it is fundamentally flawed (yeah, Palestinians target civilians so it's okay that Israel does too!) The rest of them almost certainly don't know any better, beyond what the parties say.

"Republicans/Democrats are committed to supporting Israel!" I guess people never learned to ask "Why?"

HSharp wrote:QUOTE (HSharp @ May 12 2013, 10:47 PM) What about being terrorists? Because that's what the Irgun and Lehi were.

They look to me a lot like the palestinians of today do.

@ adept I haven't missed those things at all, and if you had actually read my posts, you'd see that I've said that both sides have done horrible things. BOTH sides. For some reason you seem to blame it all on the Israeli side, and I am not sure why. You also talk of the palestinians as though they don't have an organized government. Granted they do have multiple armed groups involved, but they also have a fairly well-organized governing body. Regardless, lack of organization doesn't excuse their sins. Murder of civilians is still murder, whether state-sponsored or not.

@chrono I never argued it was OK for Israel to attack civilians. Like I said in an earlier post, I will always argue that targeting civilians is wrong. How come people don't read what I write? Why do I bother posting on these forums? I must enjoy pain.

Also I don't see why it is up to Israel to make a peace plan somehow happen. I would say it's up to both sides. You can't well expect a nation like Israel to just go along with some plan while armed palestinians fire rockets into their civilian areas and the palestinian authorities do nothing to stop it.

CronoDroid wrote:QUOTE (CronoDroid @ May 13 2013, 11:01 AM) The problem with arguing in circles like this is that we know who the usual Israel apologists are, and they're all American. These are the people who might influence the US government to stop sending its cash over there and standing up for Israel against the international community.

"Republicans/Democrats are committed to supporting Israel!" I guess people never learned to ask "Why?"

The main reason in my belief is the VERY powerful Jewish lobby in this country. And the Jewish anti-defamation league. There are some protest groups that support the Palestinians, but especially since 9/11 Arabs in general have been demonized. The Boston bombers? At first Americans thought they were domestic, then it turned out that they were Chechen Islamist's. Not supporting Israel is political suicide.


Mr. C, you're sig is

Another thing I find annoying in this discussion is all this talk of sponsorship of Israel, without any discussion whatsoever of the various states that sponsor the palestinians. Where do you think this oh-so-oppressed group keeps getting all their weapons? Just one example, but from wikipedia: According to Mahmoud Abbas, President of the Palestinian National Authority, "Hamas is funded by Iran. It claims it is financed by donations, but the donations are nothing like what it receives from Iran."

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raumvogel wrote:QUOTE (raumvogel @ May 13 2013, 02:44 PM) Mr. C, you're sig is

HJ_KG wrote:QUOTE (HJ_KG @ May 13 2013, 03:29 PM)

Funny, They don't look Druish.

Excelsior!








Note: Yes I am aware that "Excelsior" is something Stan Lee says, who is the face of Marvel Comics and that Batman is a DC character. I was being ironic and tongue and cheek. If you had the impulse to correct me then you may fit the term "fan boy"